Separating the Rapture from the Second Coming

A post tribber was having a conversation with a pretribber.  The post states to the pre, “I’m going golfing next week on Tuesday.”  The pre responds, “Is that the first Tuesday or the second Tuesday next week?”  The post states, “What?  What do you mean by that?” The pre responds, “Well the first Tuesday of the week we call the rapture, and the second Tuesday we call the second coming.”  The post responds, “That sounds a little schizophrenic to me.  How do you come up with that?”   The pre replies, “Well the first Tuesday is the day of the Lord and the second is the day of Christ.”  Again the post replies, “Say what?  Christ is the Lord!  There is no difference.”

I’ve been amazed at how the pre-trib camp has attempted to separate the singular event of the rapture/second coming.  The very word “rapture” isn’t in the Bible, yet it was conjured up as an attempt to bring a separation in the event.  They make these big long list or charts to attempt to explain the difference.  Some reasonings are all out lies.  For example:  We are told that at the second coming Jesus doesn’t meet us in the air, but heads strait for the Mount of Olives.  However, Matt. 24:29-31 which is a known as a second coming Scripture, informs us that Jesus comes in the clouds and gathers His own.  So then the argument must then separate the clouds (Matt 24:29-31) from the air (1 Thess. 4:16,17).  That has no more argument than attempting to separate ‘the day of the Lord’ from ‘the day of Christ’.  Both are the same.  We are told that at the second coming Christ’s own are gathered, but at the rapture, we simple meet Him in the air.  However, 2 Thess. 2:1 defines the rapture as being “gathered together with Him…”  In the end no distinction can be made.  Yet this is the very foundation of the pretrib belief.

For further proof see the posts concerning 2 events of “like a thief…”

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Nagging question to Pretribbers…

When you die, if you have a personal relationship with Christ, your spiritual body goes to heaven.  Paul tells us that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord… 2 Cor. 5:8.  So since Jesus informed His disciples that He goes to heaven to prepare a place for them, there has been myriads of believers who have died and gone on before.  They are indeed with Christ, living the glorified life in heaven.  Some have been there for thousands of years (earth time).  Yet at the rapture their Earthly corrupted rotted bodies will be raised incorruptible… 1 Cor. 15:51-54.   So the BIG question is:  Why all of a sudden do they need an Earth suit that cannot rot?  Unless, of course, they are coming to live on Earth with Christ for 1000 years.  Paul tells us that the dead get incorruptible bodies, and that the raptured get immortal bodies.  This is the same type of body that Adam and Eve had prior to the fall.  The Scripture tells us that, “By one man’s sin death entered into the World…”  Prior to that Adam and Eve had immortal bodies.  By sinning they put on mortality.  So that fact is that the raptured, and the dead in Christ are putting on Earth suits suitable for living on Earth during the millennium, not for returning to heaven as many suppose.

Rapture Vomit

If God tells the church that He will spew them out of His mouth if they are lukewarm, then obviously the lukewarm church is not rapture material…Rev. 3:14-22.  In fact just about all of the seven churches mentioned in the book of Revelation are filled with the stony, weedy soils, as well as the fertile soil… (Mark 4)  There are those who overcome and those who do not, but only the overcomers are rewarded.  There are those who watch and keep their garments, and those who do not.  Luke 17 informs us of those who don’t watch and warns us to remember Lot’s wife.  She didn’t get rescued, but rather turned into a pillar of salt.  The fact of the matter is that the church is not going to be raptured. Only the saints  When Jesus returns for His bride, we are told that He returns with his saints, not His church…1 Thess. 3:10-13.  The church is not prophesied about after Rev. chapter 3 (although mentioned in Rev. 22:16).  This is because it no longer exists as it once was.  The church represents mixture.  That mixture is purged by persecution and tribulation. Jesus tells us that those who don’t have the mindset for tribulation and persecution are not saved, but immediately stumble… Mark 4:18.  Once the mixture is dissolved, only the saints are left.  The church is not seen in heaven or mentioned in the 1000 year millennium, just His saints.  It is truly amazing how many think that the vomited lukewarm church is some how rapture material….Rev. 3:14-22.

The Last Trumpet Rapture

Ya gotta ask yourself what truth do you follow, Scripture or speculation.  Sure that last trumpet spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:51,52 could be speaking of a particular feast time. However, the support to show that is grounded in speculation.

Those who follow the pretrib doctrine tell us that to suggest that the last trumpet is the 7th trumpet is also speculation.  If that is the case then there would be no more supporting Scriptures, but that is not the case. There are several.

To begin Paul tells us a mystery that the Rapture happens at the last trumpet… 1 Cor. 15:51,52.  Prior to the 7th trumpet, the angel declares to John that at the 7the trumpet the mystery of God is finished…Rev. 10:7.  So at this point we have the only two verses in the Scripture that speak of a trumpet and a mystery, but that could only be coincidence, Right?

Jesus informs us that when He comes that His reward is with Him… Rev. 22:12.  We are further told that He rewards everyone according to their work, good or bad.  So we are here by made to understand that the rapture and the time of being rewarded are simultaneous.  At the 7th trumpet several things are recorded to happen.  Jesus rules and reigns forevermore, God judges the dead, and the righteous are rewarded…. Rev. 11:15-18.  So if Jesus rewards when He comes as we are told in Rev. 22:12 and the reward is given out at the 7th trumpet as we are told in Rev. 11:18, then Jesus comes at the 7th trumpet.

But the Scriptural support doesn’t end there.  There is more.  Of course, if you do not like the Word of God, then there is plenty of man’s speculation available to accommodate you.

In the context of the angel speaking to John about the 7th trumpet in Rev. 10:7-11, John is told to eat the little book.  This little book has a message that enables John to “prophesy again” (see verse 11).

The message surrounding the 7th trumpet shows a lot of closure and finished work.  The angel swears that “time is no more” (Rev.10:6 KJV).  Jesus rules and reigns forevermore…Rev. 11:15.  The dead and the righteous are rewarded or judged….Rev. 11:18.  The mystery of God is finished… Rev. 10:7.  All of these events show a finished work.  In other words the end of time as the angel declared.  The angel also declares a dual prophesy… Rev. 10:11, “you will prophesy again…”  The fact is that if Jesus rules and reigns at this point on, the devil, or beast cannot ruling and creating havoc after that.  Therefore, the havoc that is recorded after this time must be a second prophesy, as the angel declared in Rev. 10:11.

Therefore we are to understand that the prophesy of the 7 trumpets that is just concluded in Rev. 11 and the prophesy of 7 bowls or vials are one in the same event… “you will prophesy again…” Rev. 10:11.  Let’s take a look…

At the 2nd and 3rd trumpet and bowl the seas made fowl.

At the 4th trumpet and bowl the sun is effected, trumpet experience darkness, while bowl get scorched by the sun… (Possible pole shift of the Earth.  The bible records the sun standing still in the OT, the Earth is not flat, one side is dark while the other is full of light)

At the 5th trumpet and bowl there is from the pit of darkness evil that causes severe pain.

At the 6th trumpet and bowl, Euphrates river mentioned which causes a great war and loss of lives.

The seventh trumpet and bowl is the rapture…

—trumpet 1 Cor. 15:51,52, “at the last trumpet, a trumpet will sound…” Rev. 10:6,7, 11:15-18,22:12,

—bowl.. Rev. 16:15, “.Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.”  This is recorded right before the 7th bowl. WOW, Jesus is STILL coming!  The pretrib doctrine believes this verse is misplaced… hmm.

Paul declares it at the last trumpet. Jesus declares it at the last bowl, and the angel tells John that there is a dual prophesy.  The bowls and trumpets show the likeness of the dual prophesy.

So here we see that there are multiple Scriptures to show that the last trumpet and the 7th trumpet are one in the same.  There is no support, other than speculation to suggest otherwise.

Glorified, Incorruptible Bodies Vs. Immortal Bodies

When Adam and Eve were first created they were given bodies that were immortal.  Meaning that they would not die.  With the single act of sin in the garden, they put on mortality and as a result death entered into creation.  Death was foreign prior to the first sin. Often we hear that the raptured will get glorified heavenly bodies.  That is not what the Scripture tells us. The context that Paul speaks about is the difference between the physical body and the spiritual body… see 1 Cor. 15:44.  The physical body is what Paul addresses when Christ returns.

Paul tells us that the DEAD gets glorified incorruptible bodies. 1 Cor. 15:51-54  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. Look at the distinction that Paul makes… the DEAD get the glorified incorruptible bodies, while the raptured are merely changed.  The raptured get bodies just like Adam and Eve did prior to the fall, where they put on mortality with the single act of sin. The significance of this in relation to the rapture is eye opening.  Firstly, if the raptured don’t get glorified incorruptible bodies, then they cannot be heaven bound.  Rather they meet Jesus in the air (1 Thess. 4) or clouds (Matt. 24:29-31).  Translated from one place on Earth to another.  At this point the raptured are forever with the Lord.  Jesus is not headed back to heaven in a giant u-turn as some suppose, but on His way to the Mount of Olives… Zech 14:4,5 Paul tells the Bride how to get ready on Earth for when Jesus comes for her with all of His saints…1 Thess. 3:10-13.  All of His saints refer to those who have died and risen first.  They are the ones that have been dwelling the the places in heaven that Jesus stated in John 14:2,3, “In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”  Jesus is going to be dwelling on Earth for the next 1000 years.  The tribulation saints who were martyred during the tribulation will be ruling and reigning with Him there…Rev. 20:4.   Jesus and His saints will not be returning to those dwelling places in heaven spoken of in John for 1000 years.  So you see, there is no need for the raptured to have glorified incorruptible bodies until then, because they are not heaven bound until the end of the millennium. The word for rapture “harpazo” is used twice in the Word. Once in 1 Thess. 4 and the other in Acts where Philip was translated from the sea where he baptized the Ethiopian Eunuch.  Philip disappeared from one location and reappeared in another on Earth.  That is the definition of a rapture.  Often it is referred to as translated.  At the “rapture” or our gathering together with Him (2 Thess. 2:1), we are relocated from one place on Earth to another.  First the air/clouds, then to the Mount of Olives. Satan is bound for 1000 years.  I do not know if sin is totally absent from the Earth at that time due to the selfishness of the flesh, but the tempter is not present until the end. It appears that sin is not totally absent from what Isaiah states… Is. 65:20  Obviously the choice to sin could “put on” mortality once again, if that were possible for the elect.  However, reproduction and having children is very possible for the elect, who do not have glorified bodies, but rather immortal bodies like Adam and Eve at the beginnings of creation.  Isaiah speaks of this form of immortality in Isaiah 65:20. In Summary:  It is important to understand that without glorified bodies, residence in heaven doesn’t take place.  Only the dead get glorified bodies.  Without them the raptured remain on Earth with Christ for 1000 years.  Methuselah lived 969 years with a mortal body.  Longevity is the correct understanding of immortality that is spoken of by Paul.

The Scripture tells us EXACTLY when the Rapture will occure.

The reason there are so many views concerning the coming of our Lord and our gathering together with Him is due to the amount of speculation.  The truth of the matter is that the Scripture tells us exactly when and how the Rapture will occur.

Paul tells us that the rapture will occur “at the last trumpet.”  1 Cor. 15:51,52.  He describes it as a mystery. The angel declares that at the last trumpet the mystery of God is finished… Rev. 10:7. At the last trumpet, Jesus rules and reigns forevermore… Rev. 11:15.  At the last trumpet Jesus judges the dead, and REWARDS the righteous…. Rev. 11:18. Jesus declares that when He comes, that His REWARD is WITH Him… Rev. 22:12.

Are you getting that?

—-At the last trumpet Jesus comes … 1 Cor. 15:51,52

—-At the 7th trumpet Jesus rewards the righteous, and judges the dead… Rev. 11:18

—-Jesus rewards the righteous and the wicked according to their works when He comes…Rev. 22:12

—-Paul reveals a mystery at the last trumpet… 1 Cor. 15:51,52

—-The angel declares that at the 7th trumpet, the mystery is finished… Rev. 10:7

But the Scripture doesn’t end there…

The angel swore that time was no more… Rev. 10:6.   Jesus rules and reigns forevermore…Rev. 11:15, and that the mystery of God is finished…Rev. 10:7. At this point, there simply cannot have Jesus ruling and reigning forevermore and then have a chronological timing of the beast making war on the saints 2 chapters later. The fact remains that the angel told John that he would prophesy again…Rev. 10:11. At this point we can understand that the trumpets and the bowls are the same events….Note the dual nature of the prophesies. The seas are made fowl..2nd and 3rd trumpet AND bowl… 4th trumpet and bowl the sun is effected, some experience darkness, while others get scorched by the sun. 5th trumpet and bowl From the pit of darkness that cause severe pain… . 6th trumpet and bowl, Euphrates river mentioned which causes a great war and loss of lives. The seventh trumpet and bowl is the rapture…trumpet 1 Cor. 15:51,52, Rev. 10:6,7, 11:15-18,22:12, bowl.. Rev. 16:15. Paul declares it at the last trumpet (1 Cor. 15:51,52). Jesus declares it at the last bowl (Rev. 16:15), and the angel tells John that there is a dual prophesy (Rev. 10:11).

As you can clearly see, Scripture addresses the WHEN of the rapture.  It is at the end of the tribulation.  All other views use speculation in an attempt to place the rapture at different points concerning the tribulation.  Those attempts do not have any Scripture to back their claims.

Origins of the Pre-trib doctrine is NOT Margaret Macdonald or anything out the the last couple hundred years

Peter who learned from Jesus, taught the gentiles, warns of twisting Paul’s end time teachings….

2 Peter 3:10-16 KJV
[10] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
[11] Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
[12] Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
[13] Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
[14] Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
[15] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
[16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

The origins of the pretrib teachings come from Paul’s writings concerning the end times. Why, because of an attempt to separate the rapture from the second coming. If the can separate Paul’s teachings for the church, and Christ teachings for the Jews, then they think they are on the something. Problem is, that Peter ties it all together. He taught the church “second coming” eschatology.