Nagging question to Pretribbers…

When you die, if you have a personal relationship with Christ, your spiritual body goes to heaven.  Paul tells us that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord… 2 Cor. 5:8.  So since Jesus informed His disciples that He goes to heaven to prepare a place for them, there has been myriads of believers who have died and gone on before.  They are indeed with Christ, living the glorified life in heaven.  Some have been there for thousands of years (earth time).  Yet at the rapture their Earthly corrupted rotted bodies will be raised incorruptible… 1 Cor. 15:51-54.   So the BIG question is:  Why all of a sudden do they need an Earth suit that cannot rot?  Unless, of course, they are coming to live on Earth with Christ for 1000 years.  Paul tells us that the dead get incorruptible bodies, and that the raptured get immortal bodies.  This is the same type of body that Adam and Eve had prior to the fall.  The Scripture tells us that, “By one man’s sin death entered into the World…”  Prior to that Adam and Eve had immortal bodies.  By sinning they put on mortality.  So that fact is that the raptured, and the dead in Christ are putting on Earth suits suitable for living on Earth during the millennium, not for returning to heaven as many suppose.

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The Last Trumpet Rapture

Ya gotta ask yourself what truth do you follow, Scripture or speculation.  Sure that last trumpet spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:51,52 could be speaking of a particular feast time. However, the support to show that is grounded in speculation.

Those who follow the pretrib doctrine tell us that to suggest that the last trumpet is the 7th trumpet is also speculation.  If that is the case then there would be no more supporting Scriptures, but that is not the case. There are several.

To begin Paul tells us a mystery that the Rapture happens at the last trumpet… 1 Cor. 15:51,52.  Prior to the 7th trumpet, the angel declares to John that at the 7the trumpet the mystery of God is finished…Rev. 10:7.  So at this point we have the only two verses in the Scripture that speak of a trumpet and a mystery, but that could only be coincidence, Right?

Jesus informs us that when He comes that His reward is with Him… Rev. 22:12.  We are further told that He rewards everyone according to their work, good or bad.  So we are here by made to understand that the rapture and the time of being rewarded are simultaneous.  At the 7th trumpet several things are recorded to happen.  Jesus rules and reigns forevermore, God judges the dead, and the righteous are rewarded…. Rev. 11:15-18.  So if Jesus rewards when He comes as we are told in Rev. 22:12 and the reward is given out at the 7th trumpet as we are told in Rev. 11:18, then Jesus comes at the 7th trumpet.

But the Scriptural support doesn’t end there.  There is more.  Of course, if you do not like the Word of God, then there is plenty of man’s speculation available to accommodate you.

In the context of the angel speaking to John about the 7th trumpet in Rev. 10:7-11, John is told to eat the little book.  This little book has a message that enables John to “prophesy again” (see verse 11).

The message surrounding the 7th trumpet shows a lot of closure and finished work.  The angel swears that “time is no more” (Rev.10:6 KJV).  Jesus rules and reigns forevermore…Rev. 11:15.  The dead and the righteous are rewarded or judged….Rev. 11:18.  The mystery of God is finished… Rev. 10:7.  All of these events show a finished work.  In other words the end of time as the angel declared.  The angel also declares a dual prophesy… Rev. 10:11, “you will prophesy again…”  The fact is that if Jesus rules and reigns at this point on, the devil, or beast cannot ruling and creating havoc after that.  Therefore, the havoc that is recorded after this time must be a second prophesy, as the angel declared in Rev. 10:11.

Therefore we are to understand that the prophesy of the 7 trumpets that is just concluded in Rev. 11 and the prophesy of 7 bowls or vials are one in the same event… “you will prophesy again…” Rev. 10:11.  Let’s take a look…

At the 2nd and 3rd trumpet and bowl the seas made fowl.

At the 4th trumpet and bowl the sun is effected, trumpet experience darkness, while bowl get scorched by the sun… (Possible pole shift of the Earth.  The bible records the sun standing still in the OT, the Earth is not flat, one side is dark while the other is full of light)

At the 5th trumpet and bowl there is from the pit of darkness evil that causes severe pain.

At the 6th trumpet and bowl, Euphrates river mentioned which causes a great war and loss of lives.

The seventh trumpet and bowl is the rapture…

—trumpet 1 Cor. 15:51,52, “at the last trumpet, a trumpet will sound…” Rev. 10:6,7, 11:15-18,22:12,

—bowl.. Rev. 16:15, “.Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.”  This is recorded right before the 7th bowl. WOW, Jesus is STILL coming!  The pretrib doctrine believes this verse is misplaced… hmm.

Paul declares it at the last trumpet. Jesus declares it at the last bowl, and the angel tells John that there is a dual prophesy.  The bowls and trumpets show the likeness of the dual prophesy.

So here we see that there are multiple Scriptures to show that the last trumpet and the 7th trumpet are one in the same.  There is no support, other than speculation to suggest otherwise.

Glorified, Incorruptible Bodies Vs. Immortal Bodies

When Adam and Eve were first created they were given bodies that were immortal.  Meaning that they would not die.  With the single act of sin in the garden, they put on mortality and as a result death entered into creation.  Death was foreign prior to the first sin. Often we hear that the raptured will get glorified heavenly bodies.  That is not what the Scripture tells us. The context that Paul speaks about is the difference between the physical body and the spiritual body… see 1 Cor. 15:44.  The physical body is what Paul addresses when Christ returns.

Paul tells us that the DEAD gets glorified incorruptible bodies. 1 Cor. 15:51-54  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. Look at the distinction that Paul makes… the DEAD get the glorified incorruptible bodies, while the raptured are merely changed.  The raptured get bodies just like Adam and Eve did prior to the fall, where they put on mortality with the single act of sin. The significance of this in relation to the rapture is eye opening.  Firstly, if the raptured don’t get glorified incorruptible bodies, then they cannot be heaven bound.  Rather they meet Jesus in the air (1 Thess. 4) or clouds (Matt. 24:29-31).  Translated from one place on Earth to another.  At this point the raptured are forever with the Lord.  Jesus is not headed back to heaven in a giant u-turn as some suppose, but on His way to the Mount of Olives… Zech 14:4,5 Paul tells the Bride how to get ready on Earth for when Jesus comes for her with all of His saints…1 Thess. 3:10-13.  All of His saints refer to those who have died and risen first.  They are the ones that have been dwelling the the places in heaven that Jesus stated in John 14:2,3, “In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”  Jesus is going to be dwelling on Earth for the next 1000 years.  The tribulation saints who were martyred during the tribulation will be ruling and reigning with Him there…Rev. 20:4.   Jesus and His saints will not be returning to those dwelling places in heaven spoken of in John for 1000 years.  So you see, there is no need for the raptured to have glorified incorruptible bodies until then, because they are not heaven bound until the end of the millennium. The word for rapture “harpazo” is used twice in the Word. Once in 1 Thess. 4 and the other in Acts where Philip was translated from the sea where he baptized the Ethiopian Eunuch.  Philip disappeared from one location and reappeared in another on Earth.  That is the definition of a rapture.  Often it is referred to as translated.  At the “rapture” or our gathering together with Him (2 Thess. 2:1), we are relocated from one place on Earth to another.  First the air/clouds, then to the Mount of Olives. Satan is bound for 1000 years.  I do not know if sin is totally absent from the Earth at that time due to the selfishness of the flesh, but the tempter is not present until the end. It appears that sin is not totally absent from what Isaiah states… Is. 65:20  Obviously the choice to sin could “put on” mortality once again, if that were possible for the elect.  However, reproduction and having children is very possible for the elect, who do not have glorified bodies, but rather immortal bodies like Adam and Eve at the beginnings of creation.  Isaiah speaks of this form of immortality in Isaiah 65:20. In Summary:  It is important to understand that without glorified bodies, residence in heaven doesn’t take place.  Only the dead get glorified bodies.  Without them the raptured remain on Earth with Christ for 1000 years.  Methuselah lived 969 years with a mortal body.  Longevity is the correct understanding of immortality that is spoken of by Paul.

Rev. 21:8 tells us that all cowards will be cast into Hell, are pretribbers on the list?

I’ve responded to over 300 pre-trib blogs over the last year.  I’ve recorded just about every response that I’ve not found a single teacher and promoter of the pre-trib doctrine willing or capable of answering my questions.  90 percent do not even post my response.  The view cannot stand any scrutiny, yet they teach it as if it were straight from God’s lips.  The Word tells us to be ready in season and out concerning the hope that is in them, yet they NEVER do.  I’m sure it’s not because they don’t want to, they simply can’t.  Why, because the Word of God Itself debunks and debates their view.  Is it cowardice why they are unwilling to look at the facts before them or simply that they fail to love the truth and God has sent a strong delusion over them…2 Thess. 2;12?  If their view is correct, why the lack of confidence to make a stand for it?

I’ve be kicked off of many forums and websites just for asking questions.  I don’t mind being called names and the persecution that comes with making a stand for what I believe.  However, the deliberate deceit to the masses torques me.  The brainwashing has already been accomplished, and therefore it appears, it just a matter of maintaining it.  Keep any apposing views from being able to question our hard work of indoctrination.  Apparently the view is a fragile house of cards, and they know it.

The two places where Paul and Jesus both warn us to be careful that no man deceive you are the most pronounced places in the Word of obvious deception.  Paul informs us that we can’t be raptured (2 Thess. 2:1) until the “falling away” takes place.  “Falling away” comes from the Greek word ‘apostasia’ which is where we get the English words ‘apostasy’ and ‘apostate’ which means ‘departing away from the faith’.  Yet the pre-trib doctrine makes the meaning of ‘apostasia’ to mean simply “depart” or in essence ‘rapture.’  Which if were true would cause the Paul to have circular reasoning here, we cannot be raptured…2 Thess. 2:1, until we are raptured… vs. 3.  The interpretation simply doesn’t fly.

Jesus also warns us to not let man deceive us right after the disciples ask about the events surrounding the fall of the temple in Jerusalem when not one stone is left upon another…. Mark 13:1-5. (see also Luke 21:5-8, and Matt. 24:1-4)  The event of the destruction of the temple that happened in 70 AD during the Roman-Jewish War (66-73 AD) ended the daily sacrifices.  Thus fulfilling Daniel’s 70th week perfectly.  Yet the doctrine deceptive informs us that the event is sometime in the future as well as the same event of the “abomination of desolation” and the time of “Jacob’s trouble” that causes Israel to be scattered to the ends of the earth… Jer. 30,31.  Now that Israel is gathered since 1948, she will never be scattered again… Ezek. 27:21-25.

Yet, the doctrine hinges a duration of 7 years for the great tribulation on this ONE verse (Daniel 9:27) that is already fulfilled, and creates a doctrinal timeline around it.  Telling us that the temple will be rebuilt and destroyed in the time of the great tribulation. Also giving us a mid-week scenario in the tribulation. NO other Scripture supports and back up this doctrine. Yet a great multitude allows themselves to be deceived into this teaching that both Jesus and Paul specifically warn about.

15 Reasons the Pre-Trib View Has Failed

15 Ways that he Pre-tribulation Rapture doctrine has failed…

1. Paul tells the bride of Christ how to get ready ON EARTH for when Jesus come with all of His saints… 1 Thess. 3:12,13 The dead in Christ rise first that those are the saints who Jesus is returning with for His bride. The bride makes herself ready by “the righteous acts of the saints.” Those acts cannot be accomplished in heaven. They must be accomplished on Earth.

2. The Scriptures that tells us that “no one knows the day or the hour” ALWAYS reference the SECOND COMING… ex. Matt. 24:36…”of that day, no one know the day or the hour…” Which day? They one just described in vs. 29-31,35… “immediately after the tribulation…”

3. Jesus tells us that He will return “Like a thief” Rev. 16:15, 2 Peter 3:10. This references the SECOND COMING. If He were to come 7 years prior in a Pre-tribulation rapture fashion He would have made Himself into a liar on the nature of HOW He declared He would come, “Like a thief…”

4. Jesus return is NOT imminent. Paul tells us two things that must happen first before we can be gathered together with Him… 1) A great apostasy must take place and 2) the anti-christ must be revealed… 2 Thess. 2:1-3. CAN YOU NAME or POINT OUT who the anti-christ is? NO, because he hasn’t been revealed yet. At this point you can only speculate.

5. The wrath of God is not temporal… it is eternal. We are not appointed to wrath…. BUT to SALVATION and forever living with Him. 2 Thess 5:9 AND 10. This same Greek word is used in the book of Rev. 3 times… Rev. 6:16,17 where MAN declares it, and Rev. 11 where GOD declares His wrath by judging the dead with eternal hell.

6. Jesus declares that He is STILL coming “Like a thief…” for those who are watching after the tribulation… Rev. 16:15. The view must relocate this Scripture to another location otherwise God would have been pouring out His wrath upon His own people. Thus twisting the Word of God to fit their agenda.

7. The tribulation saints… this is a very interesting doctrine. Tribulation saints cannot be the bride because the bride is supposed to already be raptured. Therefore, a NEW body of saints must be created to accommodate this doctrine making us no longer one body in Christ Jesus, but multiple.

8. Luke 21:36 Here the view ASSUMES that the word “escape” means rapture. For the Pretrib view to work, it must change the Word of God concerning salvation. We are saved by grace and not of works, yet we can only be raptured by praying always and our worthiness. The pretrib view must state (in light of Luke 21:36) that only the worthy saints are raptured and not everyone who is saved. Thus putting the unworthy into a tribulation saint category. Thus removing their “bride” status because they can no longer be the bride. The view tells us that the tribulation saints become eternal servants of the bride… thus elevating them greater than the bride, because he who is greatest in the kingdom is a servant of all…

9. Jesus didn’t blow off the disciples question in Matt. 24:3, and Mark 13. The disciples asked, “When will these things be…” What things? The destruction of the temple where not one stone is left upon another… 70 AD. The pretrib view sees ALL of what Jesus answers as futuristic suggesting that Jesus blew off the disciples question, and presents their accordingly.

10. The view must make light of the only places the New Testament Scripture refers to the MYSTERY surrounding the last trumpet… 1 Cor. 15:51,52 and Rev. 10:7

11. The view tells us that the bride is in heaven for the tribulation, however the Word tells us that she is making herself ready on Earth. Paul tells her how to make herself ready for when Jesus comes with all of His saints (who have died and risen first) to present her to the Father… 1 Thess. 3:12:13 She makes herself ready by her righteous acts… these acts must be preformed on Earth, therefore she cannot be making herself ready in Heaven, but on Earth.

12. To separate the Rapture event from the Second Coming event the pre-trib view has no alternative except to just flat out lie about it. It’s one thing to use opinion, assumptions and conjecture, but to present their lists of differences attempting to make the events two, it’s just one lie after another, making up their own scripture where it doesn’t exist.

13. The church of Philadelphia FULFILLED a contingency causing them to be worthy to escape the “hour of temptation”. The pretrib view tells us there is no contingency. The church just escapes it all through rapture… Rev. 3:10

14. 1 Thess. 4:18 tells us to “comfort one another with these words.” This is a wonderful thing, however the pretrib doctrine tells us the comfort is in escaping tribulation and not in the context. We see in the context specified as the fact that we are resurrected from the dead and forever live with Him. What is not understood is that the Sadducees taught that there was no resurrection from the dead. The sorrow was a result of their teaching. Jesus tells us to have “good cheer” and “peace” concerning our assignment to tribulation… John 16:33

15. When the 5 unwise virgins were told “I never knew you”, they were also told to go to Hell. They were not told that they would be given a second chance as tribulation saints. See Matt. 25

 

 

 

to be continued…

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tribulation Saints…. Grafted out!

The Word of God tells us that we are one body in Christ Jesus.

It also tells us that we have been grafted in and that the walls of separation have come down… Eph. 2:11-14

The pretrib view has worked hard to maintain a separation between Israel and the church.  Note that the distinction is between Israel and the church and not the Jews and the Gentiles.  This separation is directly opposite God’s removal of the wall of separation that He declared through Paul in Eph. 2:11-14.  Paul also has informed us that we have been grafted in.

If you believe the pretrib doctrine, you must hold the separation not only of the Jews and the church, but separate the church into the bride of Christ and the tribulation saints.  Because the bride is believed to be removed from the tribulation, those who are saved during the tribulation cannot be the bride of Christ.  Therefore a separate set of rules and promises fall upon them. One obvious distinction is the promise of being the bride doesn’t apply to them.  In fact the promises and distinctions between the two groups are huge.  Because the Word never makes the distinction between the two groups of people, great liberties are taken to further the “understanding” of their existence.  When this was first explained to me, I was informed that the tribulation saints were not under the blood of Jesus, but rather their martyrdom paid for their price to be in heaven.  This is huge and creates a enormous difference between the two groups of people.  I must point out that this group of people referred to as tribulation saints are extra-biblical in nature this segregated group is a by-product of the pretrib doctrine.

If you believe that the cross of Christ has indeed produced one body in Christ Jesus that includes all races which is the bride of Christ then you must also believe that the rapture and the second coming are a singular event.  This is a biblical doctrine.

If however, you believe that in the separation of Israel and the church and the tribulation saints you can also have a doctrine that separates the rapture from the second coming.  This is a doctrine of man.