Speculation of the pre-trib view Verses the Grounded Word of the Post-trib view

2 Timothy 2:23 states, “But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels” or schisms..

No one refutes that there is schisms in the body of Christ over the correct placement of the rapture. Paul tells Timothy to avoid speculations for this very reason. The key would seem then to analyze the Word of God to see if one view is truly built on speculation:

Comparing the Scriptural foundations of the pre-trib rapture vs. the Scriptural foundations of the post trib view:

Pre-tribulation Rapture Scriptural Support

The biggest argument for placement of the rapture of the pre-trib doctrine is the fact that we are not “appointed to wrath.” 1 Thess. 5:9. Because of this argument it absolutely makes since that the rapture would have to take place prior to God’s wrath. So here we understand that the timing of the rapture is given according to the logical reasoning that seems to make since. However, when looking for an actual Scripture to support the claim that the rapture takes place prior to the great tribulation, there is none to be found. If you know of one that pinpoints the rapture prior to the tribulation, please post below. Therefore the foundation of the pretrib view becomes a matter of precepts that are built upon logical conclusions. As a result of a lack of a single Scripture to support the timing of a rapture prior to the tribulation, there are multiple accusations that the pretrib rapture is not in the Bible, because of this. Often this is taken to believe that the accusation is that the rapture itself is not in the Bible. That argument is easily debunked. Of course, the rapture is in the Bible. What is in question is the placement prior to the tribulation that is in question.

So at this point we currently only have an assumption based upon speculation.

The problem with the logical conclusions is, that they are based upon an assumption of what the wrath of God is. Although Rev. 14:9-11 informs us that God’s wrath is Hell, and Rev. 11:15-18 tells us that God’s wrath judges the dead after Jesus rules and reigns forevermore. The assumption remains that God’s wrath is temporal in nature and not Hell. It is true that MAN declares that God’s wrath has come in Rev. 6:16,17, but both Jesus and Paul tells us to let no MAN deceive us. So we still have a mixed message… Is God actually stating that His wrath started at this point in the book of Revelation (Rev. 6:16,17) or is it simply the claim of men? The correct interpretation hinges on whether on not God’s wrath is temporal or remains an eternal Hell.

Let’s look at the application: If God’s wrath is temporal and God’s people are not appointed to it, then why are the “tribulation saints” missing the promise? God is not a man that He should lie. If God’s wrath is and eternal Hell, then God’s promise applies to the “tribulation saints” as well. For they too are not appointed to Hell (wrath). Another thing to consider is what ARE we appointed to? Often verse 10 is left out in 1 Thess. 5:9, AND 10. We are appointed to SALVATION and FOREVER living with Him. So our appointment is eternal in nature… interesting. Why is the word “appointment” or “assignment” used here? Those words often are used for a futurist position. When someone is appointed or assigned something it often has a futuristic due date where it becomes reality. It’s amazing the tribulation some of our brothers and sisters have to endure around the world. So serious that often we can’t stand to even hear about it. Yet, they know their assignment is Eternal and that Jesus overcame. That’s what brings them “peace” and “good cheer” in the trial…John 16:33

So often man who is affixed to Earth has his mind on the things of Earth. It is difficult to grasp the reality of the eternal, but with God, He is not temporal minded. And earthquake of Tsunami can instantly kill thousands, and man can call it God’s wrath. A Saint who has spent their life serving God, can end up dying a long agonizing death of cancer. We know that their appointment is heaven, yet it’s ridiculous to consider temporal death God’s wrath. Judgement Yes. God’s judgement brings about His eternal wrath.

We are not appointed to wrath… 1 Thess. 5:9 The word for wrath in the Greek is “ergo” It is only used 5 times in Revelations… 6:16,17, and 11:18(at the last trumpet) 16:19 (at the last bowl) and 19:15 (same event at the last trumpet/last bowl) .

In conclusion, the timing of the rapture for the pre-trib view is based entirely upon speculation.
Scriptural basis for the Post-trib rapture

Paul tells us that the rapture is at the last trumpet… 1 Cor. 15:51,52. This gives us a timing to work with:

51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The angel declares the same mystery at the 7th trumpet:

Rev. 10:
[7] But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets

This verse is never brought up when people attempt to debunk the last trumpet concept. The argument is directed only on chapter 11 of Rev. when the trumpet is actually blown. It is very interesting that the angel declares the word mystery. These verse… 1 Cor. 15,51,52, and Rev. 10:7 are the only verses in the Scripture that mention the mystery of God and the last trumpet. The debunkers attempt to show a ruse of other trumpet verses in the old testament that clearly don’t apply.

But that is not all…

At the 7th trumpet, Rev. 11:15-18, Jesus rules and reigns forevermore. He rewards the righteous….


Rev. 22:12 [12] “And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be”

Did you catch that??? His reward is WITH Him when He comes…. At the 7th trumpet He REWARDS every man..

But that’s not all…

When the angel gives John the little book to eat, He swears that time “is no more,” and puts it in the context of the 7th trumpet.

Rev. 10:
[5] And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
[6] And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
[7] But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

What is the purpose of John eating the book? To what end? It’s found in the last verse:

[11] And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings

That is a huge commission to someone in their 90’s if he was near the age of Christ when called as a disciple. This vision/ heavenly experience took place in 92 to 95 AD on the island of Patmos while in exile. He spent the rest of his days in Ephesus where he finished the final draft of Revelations and the book of John. He died without any record of prophesying to many peoples, nations and tongues…. EXCEPT…

Understanding the nature of the seventh trumpet:

1. Time is no more… Rev. 10:6
2. Jesus rules and reigns forevermore… Rev. 11:15-18
3. God wrath IS come, judges the dead… Rev. 11:15-18
4. Jesus rewards the righteous… Rev. 11:15-18
5. God destroys them that destroy the Earth… Rev. 11:15-18
6. Paul declares the Rapture happens at the last trumpet…. 1 Cor. 15:51,52

If Jesus now rules and reigns forevermore and God destroys those that destroy the Earth, then you simply cannot have an antichrist ruling and reigning chronologically after this.
Throughout the book of Revelation the angels/beast/voice from heaven are showing John the revelation and walking him through it, until you get to a section of chapters 12-16. In this section no personal guidance is supplied to him through it. In this section we have the mark of the beast, and the seven bowl/vials judgments. The angel does not return to explain and expound on this section until chapter 17. We know that Jesus rules and reigns forevermore at the end of chapter eleven and therefore this section cannot be happening post 7th trumpet, but rather must be a parallel, or a SECOND prophesy. John prophesying AGAIN. The angel told John that he would prophesy AGAIN as a result of eating the little book. Therefore the ONLY explanation is that the 12-16 chapters is exactly that; John prophesying again. This second prophesy originates from eating the book. John never had the opportunity to prophesy again to many tribes, nations and kings after his time of exile on Patmos. He was an old man and died shortly afterward. However, this second prophesy IS and will be heard by all the kings, nations, and tribes, when the mark of the beast is implemented and they start wondering why the Saints won’t play along and take the mark. The second prophesy mirrors the first. The seven bowls expound on it’s sister prophesy, the seven trumpets. They are one in the same.

That being the case, check out right before the seventh bowl. Jesus declares in Rev. 16:15 its in red!

“Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame

This is the same warning He gave the CHURCH of Sardis in Rev. 3:1-4. (Why is the church being mentioned in chapter 16?)

So here we see Paul declaring that the rapture is at the last trumpet. We see Jesus declaring that the rapture is about to happen right before the last bowl, and we have the Angel showing John that the trumpets and the bowls are one in the same. Jesus rewards the righteous at the 7th trumpet, and declares He comes and His reward is WITH Him.

There is at least three Scriptures that directly point to the rapture at the 7th trumpet. The view is not built upon speculation, but the Word of God


Why the Pre-trib Doctrine is Total Speculation, and Conjecture Part 2

The number one argument that draws people to the Pre-tribulation rapture doctrine that Christians will be rapture out before the Great tribulation is the fact that Christians are not assigned or appointed to God’s wrath.  The problem is that the nature of God’s wrath is assumed and defined contrary to God’s Word.  Lets look at the verse:

1 Thess. 5:9,10 (KJV) For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

(NASV)9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

So we understand that …in the future….. we are not appointed, assigned, or destined to God’s wrath.  The question that needs to be asked is “what does that apply to?”  Instead many just ASSUME that it refers to a ‘temporal’ wrath on Earth.  However does it?  The answer is a resounding “NO!”  The wrath that ‘is to come’ is Hell itself.

There are two words used in the Greek language that often translates into English as “wrath.”  The one used in this passage is “thymos” it is present in only two passages in Revelation… Rev. 6:16,17, and Rev. 11:18

In Rev. 6, MAN defines the events happening to Earth as God’s wrath, but in Rev. 11:18 the 24 elders define God’s wrath as Hell, or judging the dead.

The other word in the Greek used for God’s wrath starts after Rev. 11 and is used in the bowl/vial judgements.  In Rev. 14:9-11 the angels define EXACTLY what God’s wrath is:

[9] And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
[10] The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
[11] And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Here the picture of God’s wrath is once again… ETERNAL in nature… fire and brimstone with smoke that ascends up eternally.

Okay, this is the basic argument and anyone can twist the Scriptures to suggest what they want it to suggest, so let’s look at the application.

First of all, the pretrib doctrine separates the church from the tribulation saints in the book of Revelation.  The argument is that the church/bride cannot experience God’s wrath therefore she must be raptured out of that mess.  Are you seeing a problem yet?  What about the “tribulation saints?”  Are they appointed to God’s wrath?  Does God’s Word not apply to them? In my other posts, I’ve addressed this issue in more detail.  The fact of the matter is that God’s promises apply to all of God’s people.  In order for God’s wrath to temporal, God’s Word would be a lie to the “tribulation saints.”  God’s Word does not lie, therefore God’s wrath is not temporal, but Hell itself.

So the very foundation of the pretrib doctrine has now been destroyed.  Without the speculation that states that God’s wrath is not Hell, but Earthly, any basis for placing the rapture at the beginning of the tribulation has been dismantled.  Understanding that God’s wrath is indeed Hell, leaves no Biblical argument for skipping out of the great tribulation.  Without the wrath of God being temporal, the pre-trib rapture doctrine ceases to exist.

The Bible tells the Timing of the Rapture

Although the Bible tells us that no man knows the day or the hour… Matt. 24:36 and that Jesus will come as a thief in the night…Matt. 24:42,43, 2 Thess. 5:2, 2 Peter 3:10, Rev. 16:15.  The Scripture also gives a very big clue and tells us when.  In 1 Cor. 15:51,52 Paul tells us that it is “at the last trumpet”
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed

Often this fact doesn’t fit several doctrines so those who believe those doctrines immediately dismiss this fact.  However, Rev. 10:7 and 1 Cor. 15:52 are the only two verses in Scripture that discuss the revealed mystery at the last trumpet. Take a look at Rev. 10:5-7

[5] And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven

[6] And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
[7] But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Now lets take the actual event of the last trumpet:   Rev. 11

[15] And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
[16] And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
[17] Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
[18] And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
[19] And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail

Take a look at some of the list of happens at the last trumpet..

1)  Time is no more…. Rev. 10:6

2)  The kingdoms of the world are become the kingdoms of Christ… Rev. 11:15

3)  Christ rules forevermore… Rev. 11:15

4)  Not only does Christ have the power….  He uses it… He HAS reigned at this moment in time/7th trumpet!   Rev. 11:17

5)  God pours out His wrath on the dead… Rev.11:18

6)  He rewards His people (see list)… Rev. 11:18

7)  People can no longer destroy the earth… Rev. 11:18

8)  The rapture…. at the last trumpet…. 1 Cor 15:52

9)  The mystery of God is finished… Rev. 10:6

Notice that Christ rewards His people… Point number 6….  At this point the reward is given out

Rev. 22:12

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be

Rev. 22:12 implies that the reward is handed out at the time of His return.

Could the fact that God wrath is poured out on the dead mean anything different than putting them into an eternal Hell?

Digging still deeper into the Word.  Rev 10 tells us that John eats the scroll or little book that gives him a bitter stomach.  Is this not the climax of the chapter?  This brings about the result of God giving him another word to release to the people…  Rev. 10:11

[11] And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings

John wrote the Book of Revelation in his 90s if he were relatively the same age as Jesus.  Some say it was written in 92 Ad others 95 during his exile to the island of Patmos when he recorded it.  It is believed that he was released and lived the remainder of his days in Ephesus where he completed the finished copies of Revelation and John.

So the question is when did he prophesy AGAIN.  John isn’t known historically as a prophet.  He is known as John the revelator because of the book of Revelations.

The obvious conclusion is that the seventh trumpet is the END of the first prophesy.  The angel had declared that “time is no longer” at the last trumpet just prior to giving John the little book,  You simply cannot have the big long list of accomplished events such as Christ ruling and reigning forevermore and then events in the next prophesy such as the antichrist reigning a couple of chapters later and think that the events are sequential.  The fact is that the first prophesy is finished at the 7th trumpet, and John is about to prophesy again.

In Rev. 12 the second prophesy begins and it is sequential through chapter 16.   Note the absence of any angel leading John through this passage.  The absence would would give opportunity for the presentation of the little book’s second prophesy.  Chapter 17 and 18 are explanatory chapters of that prophesy where the angel returns to explain them.

There must be two prophesies, because that would be the only way for the angel to swear correctly, and for Christ to rule and reign forevermore.  The the second prophesy is complementary of the first.  Therefore the trumpets and the vials/bowls are one in the same.   Note the announcement of the Rapture right before the 7the vial/bowl….

Rev. 16:15  Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame

Here again we have doctrines that dismiss this verse or tell us it is misplaced, but is it?  If the trumpets and the bowls are one in the same, this placement of this verse absolutely complements the fact that Jesus comes at the last (7th) trumpet.

Pretrib doctrine is Foundationaly built on Speculation of obscure passages part 1

I find it fascinating that a pre-trib doctrine believer actually believes that some prophesies are fulfilled. After all the most obvious fulfillment is the one where the daily sacrifices have ended, and pretribbers see it as futuristic. The Jews know when these sacrifices ended, the rest of the world knows that the Jews have never continued to resume the daily sacrifices, and yet pre-tribbers place this prophesy in the future. Interesting…

Titus who made a covenant with the Roman Empire started his quest in 66 AD to squelch the Jewish rebellion. After 3.5 years his quest ended by the decimation of the temple in Jerusalem. Thus ending the daily sacrifices and leaving Jerusalem desolate. This happened in chronological order of Daniel’s prophesy of the 70 weeks. Right after the Messiah was cut off by not for Himself, thus fulfilling Daniel’s 70th week to a T… YET…the pretribber tells us that there is a mysterious 2000 yr +/- gap between the 69th and 70 week. Just so that the Great Tribulation can be a 7 yr period, and so they can falsely separate the Jewish program from the church. What do they do with the daily sacrifices being obviously cut off? They tell us that the Temple is going to be rebuilt and the daily sacrifices again restored…. YET… the whole of Scripture NEVER gives any indication of that. In fact this thinking is brought about by a single verse…. Daniel’s 70th week which Titus clearly fulfilled in a timely manor.

This single verse that is falsely interpreted by the pretrib doctrine is the Foundation of the pretrib doctrine. Without it you have no 7 year tribulation period, no temple rebuilt, no mid-tribulation 3.5 year timeline, no end of the daily sacrifices, and the like. ONE SINGLE VERSE, and NO SUPPORTING VERSES to support it. The entire doctrine is built on such speculation of obscure passages that don’t support the doctrine. Sad part is that pretribbers want it to work so badly for them that they forsake the truth just to make it work for them. It is extremely sad the deception that they have brought upon themselves because they fail to love the truth… 2 Thess. 2:11,12

Daniel’s 70 Week, The Abomination of Desolation, and the time of Jacob’s Trouble are indeed the same event, but….

History is a beautiful thing. Those who ignore it are destined to repeat it. Unfortunately some End Time views seem to ignore some obvious history.

First of all we must address the foundational basis of Matt. 24. Many ignore the first question the disciples asked, as most pre-tribbers do. The disciples comment to Jesus concerning the beauty of the temple and its architecture. Jesus prophesies that it will be destroyed and not one stone left upon another. This occurred in 70 AD. The disciples then asked when this would come to pass… THIS IS THE QUESTION OFTEN OVERLOOKED. The parallel passages in Mark 13, and Luke 21 also ask THIS question and do not continue to ask the rest of the question that is in Matt. 24:3. That is pertaining to the time of the End. The fact that is overlooked is that this question that the disciples asked is TOTALLY OVERLOOKED…. WHY?

Jesus DID NOT blow off the disciples question, but answered it:

In 66 AD Titus started a conquest through an agreement with the Roman Empire to squelch the Jewish uprising against Roman rule. This lasted for 3.5 years in that ended in 70 AD with the decimation of the Temple. As a result not a stone was left upon another because the gold seeped through the stones and the gold seekers displaced them to get to the gold. Also the daily sacrifices were ended. This piece of History is an obvious fulfillment to Daniel 9:27. This happened chronologically with vs. 26 which tells us that the Messiah was cut off but not for Himself. Another obvious fulfillment of Christ on the cross, who died not for Himself, but for the sins of the World. By ignoring this obvious fulfillment pre-tribbers lose a witness to the Jews at this Scripture obviously points to the cross and the decimation of the temple in 70 AD and the end of the daily sacrifices. The Jews are well aware of when they lost the daily sacrifices and how.

Unfortunately the pretrib view totally ignores this fact and somehow it twists this verse (Daniel 9:27) into giving us nearly thousands of years gap between verse 26, and 27 to tell us that Titus didn’t fulfill it in a timely manor, but that it somehow is yet to be fulfilled. Thus, also ignoring the fact that the daily sacrifices were ended nearly 2000 years ago.  The Jews know exactly when the daily sacrifices ended… if only the pre-trib doctrine could figure it out then they would have not destroyed a witness here.

But…back to the fact that Jesus didn’t blow off and ignore the disciples question in Matt. 24:3. Jesus totally answered it. It is in verses 15-21. He told them, when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not previously spoken about by Daniel the prophet… (let the reader understand) That’s very interesting…. let the reader understand…. History lesson again: In around 167 BC another invading army under the conquest of a Roman ruler Antiochus Epiphanies. He created an alter over the alter of God in the temple and offered a pig to Zeus. This is recorded in Daniel 11. Daniel 11 is a prophesy that today reads like a history book. It starts with the time of the Greeks and ends with the Roman Empire where the Glorious Land (Israel) is made to be included as part of the Roman Empire, but Ammon,Moab, etc is not (see Daniel 11:40.41) So we can clearly see that the Jews totally understood, …let the reader understand.., when Titus came with his army and stood in the temple where he ought not, just as Jesus had predicted.

After this time the Jews were increasing pushed from their homeland to the ends of the Earth. By 162 AD Jerusalem was considered Jew free and not a Jew was to be found in Jerusalem. The Jews were not to return until 1948. This fulfills another prophesy… but if you are a pretribber…you are not going to like this one… In Jer. 30:7 Jeremiah predicts a time for Israel unlike no other, it is called the time of Jacob’s trouble.  It’s unfortunate that the pretrib view does not read the rest of the prophesy that continues through Jer. 31. You see as a result of the time of Jacob’s trouble Israel is scattered to the ends of the Earth. After which she is gathered… Jer. 31:8. She will never be scattered again. At the time of scattering 3 on the onset and up to 6 Million Jews were killed by the Romans, and at the time of gathering under the Nazi’s 6 million Jews were killed. The scattering included many generations up to 1948 where she was gathered. This was INDEED the worse time ever for Israel, approx. 12 million Jews killed. When the Messiah returns He will find Jerusalem OCCUPIED with Jews… Zech 14:1-4

Consider the pretrib… view if you believe the time of Jacob’s trouble to be futuristic…  3.5 years into the Great Tribulation the temple is destroyed and the daily sacrifices ended… The Jews are scattered to the ends of the Earth (according to Jer. 30:7 through Jer. 31), just to turn around and be gathered… returned to their homes so that the Messiah will find Jerusalem occupied by Jews. During that time half of Jerusalem will be put under captivity to fulfill Zech.14.  All of these events would have to take place in less than 3.5 year. It is estimated around 6 million Jews in Israel today. Over 12 million Jews would have to be killed during this time for it to be the worst time ever for Israel. Unless, of course, you do not consider the death toll as a consideration of the “worst time ever” for Israel.  What then would justify a “worst time ever” for Israel?

So Jesus spoke of the “worst time ever” for Israel… it started with Titus and the destruction of the temple. Jesus tells them to flee when they see the armies surround Jerusalem and Titus stand in the Temple where he ought not. That would be in the inner courts where gentiles were not permitted. Matt. 24:15-21

Note that Daniel also speaks of the “worst time ever” for Israel. Daniel 12:1….”At that time…” What time??? the time of the Roman Empire just spoken about in Daniel 11 which included the Glorious Land, but not Edom, Ammon…etc. see vs. 40,41

Scripture makes it very clear when the “worst time ever” WAS for Israel. It is not futuristic. Her future is brighter than her past.  The abomination of Desolation took place in 70 AD and when John wrote the book of Revelation it is not mentioned… Why?  Because it was now a thing of the past!

So why does the Pre-trib view ignore History? Surely they could integrate it into their doctrine? One point is the 7 year period of the Great Tribulation. Without Daniel 9:27 (Daniel’s 70th week) being futuristic a seven year period is not substantiated, and it’s very important for it to be 7 years long for them for some reason. More importantly, it is important to separate the Jews from the church concerning the Olivet discourse. To except history as history and not push it into the future one must except Paul’s writings that the wall of separation has come down between the Jew and gentile and we are one new man in Christ Jesus… Eph. 2:11-15. Without this separation the separation between the rapture and the second coming becomes impossible. It is already… you see Jesus declares that He will come “like a thief…” for the second coming… 2 Peter 3:10, Rev. 16:15. If a rapture were to happen 7 year prior, the Jesus would be a liar concerning the nature in which He declared how he would come for the second coming, “like a thief…” A rapture 7 years prior would destroy any element of surprise, “like a thief…” would have… Matt. 24:42,43. Jesus is not the liar.

Peter actually warns us of the Pre-tribulation Rapture Lie

Peter was there when Jesus gave the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24, Mark 13, Luke 21). 

Peter later traveled with Paul to the gentiles.  (Book of Acts)

Peter taught the same message to the gentiles that Jesus taught the Jews.  (2 Peter 3)

The Pretrib view makes it case from Paul’s writings and declares a separation of the church and Israel, and declares a separation between the rapture and second coming. 

Paul’s writings to the gentiles gives opportunity for people to twist the Scriptures. 

Peter addresses this:  2 Peter 3:10-16

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. 14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation–as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

Daniel’s 70th Week fulfilled or future?

The 70th week prophesied in Daniel 9 has caused tremendous controversy in interpretation.  For the pretrib camp it is important to them to take this week and place it nearly 2000 plus years in the future.

Verse 27 is where the problem lies.  The previous verses are clearly about the cross of Christ and His perfected work there, and to this end most are in agreement that this is what it is referring too.  Verse 27 states:

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week.  But in the middle of the week he shall bring and end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wings of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,  Even until the consummation, which is determined, poured out on the desolate.

There are many historical accounts that disagree with each other concerning the 69weeks prior to this week.  Many say this week concluded at 33 AD.  Others say this week is yet to be concluded.  This verse makes it plain what the results are for this time period. The daily sacrifices end and the place is left desolate.

Jesus Himself put an end to the daily sacrifices by becoming that sacrifice once and for all time.  Although the daily sacrifices continued for a couple of decade after the crucifixion, Jesus made these sacrifices of no effect.  When the daily sacrifices were ended in the temple in Jerusalem the temple was burnt down and every stone removed to recover the gold that melted between the stones.  The temple and the city was left desolate by the Roman conquerors.  Thus verse 27 has obvious fulfillment of prophesy.

Why then is it needed so desperately for the pretrib doctrine to detach from the sequential order the 70th week and placed nearly 2000 years in the future by the pretrib doctrine?  We know that the devil is a counterfiter.  In the future he will have his own anti-christ and his own redemption for sin.  Who’s doctrine does the pretrib doctrine belong to then?  Christ who has already fulfilled the 70th week or Satan who has a plan to fulfill it sometime in the future?