If God tells the church that He will spew them out of His mouth if they are lukewarm, then obviously the lukewarm church is not rapture material…Rev. 3:14-22. In fact just about all of the seven churches mentioned in the book of Revelation are filled with the stony, weedy soils, as well as the fertile soil… (Mark 4) There are those who overcome and those who do not, but only the overcomers are rewarded. There are those who watch and keep their garments, and those who do not. Luke 17 informs us of those who don’t watch and warns us to remember Lot’s wife. She didn’t get rescued, but rather turned into a pillar of salt. The fact of the matter is that the church is not going to be raptured. Only the saints When Jesus returns for His bride, we are told that He returns with his saints, not His church…1 Thess. 3:10-13. The church is not prophesied about after Rev. chapter 3 (although mentioned in Rev. 22:16). This is because it no longer exists as it once was. The church represents mixture. That mixture is purged by persecution and tribulation. Jesus tells us that those who don’t have the mindset for tribulation and persecution are not saved, but immediately stumble… Mark 4:18. Once the mixture is dissolved, only the saints are left. The church is not seen in heaven or mentioned in the 1000 year millennium, just His saints. It is truly amazing how many think that the vomited lukewarm church is some how rapture material….Rev. 3:14-22.
The pre-trib doctrine tells us that the Post-trib doctrine is ridiculous because of a massive u-turn that would be required to take place. I know that the pre-trib supporters make this claim of the post-trib view, but I don’t find it in the post-trib doctrine.
Here is what happens. We meet Jesus in the air/clouds… 1 Thess. 4:14-17, Matt. 24:29-31, … where we rendezvous. Jesus is not headed for heaven but rather for the Mount of Olives… Zech 14:4,5. Jesus rules and reigns for 1000 years on Earth with the martyred tribulation saints… Rev. 20:4. Yes, Jesus had gone and prepared a place for us in heaven, that where He is there we may be also…John 14:3, but we are with the Lord, and He is not in Heaven, but on Earth for 1000 years.
Notice that only the DEAD get incorruptible bodies, not the raptured… 1 Cor. 15:51-54. The raptured get physical immortal bodies like Adam and Eve had in the garden prior to the fall due to sin. “… by one man’s sin, death entered into the World…” The bodies that the raptured receive are not glorified heavenly bodies as many brainwash in their teachings. The raptured do not need glorified heavenly bodies, because they are with the Lord, who is on Earth for the next 1000 years.
Ya gotta ask yourself what truth do you follow, Scripture or speculation. Sure that last trumpet spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:51,52 could be speaking of a particular feast time. However, the support to show that is grounded in speculation.
Those who follow the pretrib doctrine tell us that to suggest that the last trumpet is the 7th trumpet is also speculation. If that is the case then there would be no more supporting Scriptures, but that is not the case. There are several.
To begin Paul tells us a mystery that the Rapture happens at the last trumpet… 1 Cor. 15:51,52. Prior to the 7th trumpet, the angel declares to John that at the 7the trumpet the mystery of God is finished…Rev. 10:7. So at this point we have the only two verses in the Scripture that speak of a trumpet and a mystery, but that could only be coincidence, Right?
Jesus informs us that when He comes that His reward is with Him… Rev. 22:12. We are further told that He rewards everyone according to their work, good or bad. So we are here by made to understand that the rapture and the time of being rewarded are simultaneous. At the 7th trumpet several things are recorded to happen. Jesus rules and reigns forevermore, God judges the dead, and the righteous are rewarded…. Rev. 11:15-18. So if Jesus rewards when He comes as we are told in Rev. 22:12 and the reward is given out at the 7th trumpet as we are told in Rev. 11:18, then Jesus comes at the 7th trumpet.
But the Scriptural support doesn’t end there. There is more. Of course, if you do not like the Word of God, then there is plenty of man’s speculation available to accommodate you.
In the context of the angel speaking to John about the 7th trumpet in Rev. 10:7-11, John is told to eat the little book. This little book has a message that enables John to “prophesy again” (see verse 11).
The message surrounding the 7th trumpet shows a lot of closure and finished work. The angel swears that “time is no more” (Rev.10:6 KJV). Jesus rules and reigns forevermore…Rev. 11:15. The dead and the righteous are rewarded or judged….Rev. 11:18. The mystery of God is finished… Rev. 10:7. All of these events show a finished work. In other words the end of time as the angel declared. The angel also declares a dual prophesy… Rev. 10:11, “you will prophesy again…” The fact is that if Jesus rules and reigns at this point on, the devil, or beast cannot ruling and creating havoc after that. Therefore, the havoc that is recorded after this time must be a second prophesy, as the angel declared in Rev. 10:11.
Therefore we are to understand that the prophesy of the 7 trumpets that is just concluded in Rev. 11 and the prophesy of 7 bowls or vials are one in the same event… “you will prophesy again…” Rev. 10:11. Let’s take a look…
At the 2nd and 3rd trumpet and bowl the seas made fowl.
At the 4th trumpet and bowl the sun is effected, trumpet experience darkness, while bowl get scorched by the sun… (Possible pole shift of the Earth. The bible records the sun standing still in the OT, the Earth is not flat, one side is dark while the other is full of light)
At the 5th trumpet and bowl there is from the pit of darkness evil that causes severe pain.
At the 6th trumpet and bowl, Euphrates river mentioned which causes a great war and loss of lives.
The seventh trumpet and bowl is the rapture…
—trumpet 1 Cor. 15:51,52, “at the last trumpet, a trumpet will sound…” Rev. 10:6,7, 11:15-18,22:12,
—bowl.. Rev. 16:15, “.Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.” This is recorded right before the 7th bowl. WOW, Jesus is STILL coming! The pretrib doctrine believes this verse is misplaced… hmm.
Paul declares it at the last trumpet. Jesus declares it at the last bowl, and the angel tells John that there is a dual prophesy. The bowls and trumpets show the likeness of the dual prophesy.
So here we see that there are multiple Scriptures to show that the last trumpet and the 7th trumpet are one in the same. There is no support, other than speculation to suggest otherwise.
When Adam and Eve were first created they were given bodies that were immortal. Meaning that they would not die. With the single act of sin in the garden, they put on mortality and as a result death entered into creation. Death was foreign prior to the first sin.
Often we hear that the raptured will get glorified incorruptible bodies. That is not what the Scripture tells us. Paul tells us that the DEAD gets glorified incorruptible bodies.
1 Cor. 15:51-54 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Look at the distinction that Paul makes… the DEAD get the glorified incorruptible bodies, while the raptured are merely changed. The raptured get bodies just like Adam and Eve did prior to the fall, where they put on mortality with the single act of sin.
The significance of this in relation to the rapture is eye opening. Firstly, if the raptured don’t get glorified incorruptible bodies, then they cannot be heaven bound. Rather they meet Jesus in the air (1 Thess. 4) or clouds (Matt. 24:29-31). Translated from one place on Earth to another. At this point the raptured are forever with the Lord. Jesus is not headed back to heaven in a giant u-turn as some suppose, but on His way to the Mount of Olives… Zech 14:4,5
Paul tells the Bride how to get ready on Earth for when Jesus comes for her with all of His saints…1 Thess. 3:10-13. All of His saints refer to those who have died and risen first. They are the ones that have been dwelling the the places in heaven that Jesus stated in John 14:2,3, “In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” Jesus is going to be dwelling on Earth for the next 1000 years. The tribulation saints who were martyred during the tribulation will be ruling and reigning with Him there…Rev. 20:4. Jesus and His saints will not be returning to those dwelling places in heaven spoken of in John for 1000 years. So you see, there is no need for the raptured to have glorified incorruptible bodies until then, because they are not heaven bound until the end of the millennium.
The word for rapture “harpazo” is used twice in the Word. Once in 1 Thess. 4 and the other in Acts where Philip was translated from the sea where he baptized the Ethiopian Eunuch. Philip disappeared from one location and reappeared in another on Earth. That is the definition of a rapture. Often it is referred to as translated. At the “rapture” or our gathering together with Him (2 Thess. 2:1), we are relocated from one place on Earth to another. First the air/clouds, then to the Mount of Olives.
Satan is bound for 1000 years. I do not know if sin is totally absent from the Earth at that time due to the selfishness of the flesh, but the tempter is not present until the end. It appears that sin is not totally absent from what Isaiah states… Is. 65:20 Obviously the choice to sin could “put on” mortality once again, if that were possible for the elect. However, reproduction and having children is very possible for the elect, who do not have glorified bodies, but rather immortal bodies like Adam and Eve at the beginnings of creation. Isaiah speaks of this form of immortality in Isaiah 65:20.
In Summary: It is important to understand that without glorified bodies, residence in heaven doesn’t take place. Only the dead get glorified bodies. Without them the raptured remain on Earth with Christ for 1000 years. Methuselah lived 969 years with a mortal body. Longevity is the correct understanding of immortality that is spoken of by Paul.
The reason there are so many views concerning the coming of our Lord and our gathering together with Him is due to the amount of speculation. The truth of the matter is that the Scripture tells us exactly when and how the Rapture will occur.
Paul tells us that the rapture will occur “at the last trumpet.” 1 Cor. 15:51,52. He describes it as a mystery. The angel declares that at the last trumpet the mystery of God is finished… Rev. 10:7. At the last trumpet, Jesus rules and reigns forevermore… Rev. 11:15. At the last trumpet Jesus judges the dead, and REWARDS the righteous…. Rev. 11:18. Jesus declares that when He comes, that His REWARD is WITH Him… Rev. 22:12.
Are you getting that?
—-At the last trumpet Jesus comes … 1 Cor. 15:51,52
—-At the 7th trumpet Jesus rewards the righteous, and judges the dead… Rev. 11:18
—-Jesus rewards the righteous and the wicked according to their works when He comes…Rev. 22:12
—-Paul reveals a mystery at the last trumpet… 1 Cor. 15:51,52
—-The angel declares that at the 7th trumpet, the mystery is finished… Rev. 10:7
But the Scripture doesn’t end there…
The angel swore that time was no more… Rev. 10:6. Jesus rules and reigns forevermore…Rev. 11:15, and that the mystery of God is finished…Rev. 10:7. At this point, there simply cannot have Jesus ruling and reigning forevermore and then have a chronological timing of the beast making war on the saints 2 chapters later. The fact remains that the angel told John that he would prophesy again…Rev. 10:11. At this point we can understand that the trumpets and the bowls are the same events….Note the dual nature of the prophesies. The seas are made fowl..2nd and 3rd trumpet AND bowl… 4th trumpet and bowl the sun is effected, some experience darkness, while others get scorched by the sun. 5th trumpet and bowl From the pit of darkness that cause severe pain… . 6th trumpet and bowl, Euphrates river mentioned which causes a great war and loss of lives. The seventh trumpet and bowl is the rapture…trumpet 1 Cor. 15:51,52, Rev. 10:6,7, 11:15-18,22:12, bowl.. Rev. 16:15. Paul declares it at the last trumpet (1 Cor. 15:51,52). Jesus declares it at the last bowl (Rev. 16:15), and the angel tells John that there is a dual prophesy (Rev. 10:11).
As you can clearly see, Scripture addresses the WHEN of the rapture. It is at the end of the tribulation. All other views use speculation in an attempt to place the rapture at different points concerning the tribulation. Those attempts do not have any Scripture to back their claims.
2 Timothy 2:23 states, “But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels” or schisms..
No one refutes that there is schisms in the body of Christ over the correct placement of the rapture. Paul tells Timothy to avoid speculations for this very reason. The key would seem then to analyze the Word of God to see if one view is truly built on speculation:
Comparing the Scriptural foundations of the pre-trib rapture vs. the Scriptural foundations of the post trib view:
Pre-tribulation Rapture Scriptural Support
The biggest argument for placement of the rapture of the pre-trib doctrine is the fact that we are not “appointed to wrath.” 1 Thess. 5:9. Because of this argument it absolutely makes since that the rapture would have to take place prior to God’s wrath. So here we understand that the timing of the rapture is given according to the logical reasoning that seems to make since. However, when looking for an actual Scripture to support the claim that the rapture takes place prior to the great tribulation, there is none to be found. If you know of one that pinpoints the rapture prior to the tribulation, please post below. Therefore the foundation of the pretrib view becomes a matter of precepts that are built upon logical conclusions. As a result of a lack of a single Scripture to support the timing of a rapture prior to the tribulation, there are multiple accusations that the pretrib rapture is not in the Bible, because of this. Often this is taken to believe that the accusation is that the rapture itself is not in the Bible. That argument is easily debunked. Of course, the rapture is in the Bible. What is in question is the placement prior to the tribulation that is in question.
So at this point we currently only have an assumption based upon speculation.
The problem with the logical conclusions is, that they are based upon an assumption of what the wrath of God is. Although Rev. 14:9-11 informs us that God’s wrath is Hell, and Rev. 11:15-18 tells us that God’s wrath judges the dead after Jesus rules and reigns forevermore. The assumption remains that God’s wrath is temporal in nature and not Hell. It is true that MAN declares that God’s wrath has come in Rev. 6:16,17, but both Jesus and Paul tells us to let no MAN deceive us. So we still have a mixed message… Is God actually stating that His wrath started at this point in the book of Revelation (Rev. 6:16,17) or is it simply the claim of men? The correct interpretation hinges on whether on not God’s wrath is temporal or remains an eternal Hell.
Let’s look at the application: If God’s wrath is temporal and God’s people are not appointed to it, then why are the “tribulation saints” missing the promise? God is not a man that He should lie. If God’s wrath is and eternal Hell, then God’s promise applies to the “tribulation saints” as well. For they too are not appointed to Hell (wrath). Another thing to consider is what ARE we appointed to? Often verse 10 is left out in 1 Thess. 5:9, AND 10. We are appointed to SALVATION and FOREVER living with Him. So our appointment is eternal in nature… interesting. Why is the word “appointment” or “assignment” used here? Those words often are used for a futurist position. When someone is appointed or assigned something it often has a futuristic due date where it becomes reality. It’s amazing the tribulation some of our brothers and sisters have to endure around the world. So serious that often we can’t stand to even hear about it. Yet, they know their assignment is Eternal and that Jesus overcame. That’s what brings them “peace” and “good cheer” in the trial…John 16:33
So often man who is affixed to Earth has his mind on the things of Earth. It is difficult to grasp the reality of the eternal, but with God, He is not temporal minded. And earthquake of Tsunami can instantly kill thousands, and man can call it God’s wrath. A Saint who has spent their life serving God, can end up dying a long agonizing death of cancer. We know that their appointment is heaven, yet it’s ridiculous to consider temporal death God’s wrath. Judgement Yes. God’s judgement brings about His eternal wrath.
We are not appointed to wrath… 1 Thess. 5:9 The word for wrath in the Greek is “ergo” It is only used 5 times in Revelations… 6:16,17, and 11:18(at the last trumpet) 16:19 (at the last bowl) and 19:15 (same event at the last trumpet/last bowl) .
In conclusion, the timing of the rapture for the pre-trib view is based entirely upon speculation.
Scriptural basis for the Post-trib rapture
Paul tells us that the rapture is at the last trumpet… 1 Cor. 15:51,52. This gives us a timing to work with:
51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The angel declares the same mystery at the 7th trumpet:
 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets
This verse is never brought up when people attempt to debunk the last trumpet concept. The argument is directed only on chapter 11 of Rev. when the trumpet is actually blown. It is very interesting that the angel declares the word mystery. These verse… 1 Cor. 15,51,52, and Rev. 10:7 are the only verses in the Scripture that mention the mystery of God and the last trumpet. The debunkers attempt to show a ruse of other trumpet verses in the old testament that clearly don’t apply.
But that is not all…
At the 7th trumpet, Rev. 11:15-18, Jesus rules and reigns forevermore. He rewards the righteous….
Rev. 22:12  “And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be”
Did you catch that??? His reward is WITH Him when He comes…. At the 7th trumpet He REWARDS every man..
But that’s not all…
When the angel gives John the little book to eat, He swears that time “is no more,” and puts it in the context of the 7th trumpet.
 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
What is the purpose of John eating the book? To what end? It’s found in the last verse:
 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings
That is a huge commission to someone in their 90’s if he was near the age of Christ when called as a disciple. This vision/ heavenly experience took place in 92 to 95 AD on the island of Patmos while in exile. He spent the rest of his days in Ephesus where he finished the final draft of Revelations and the book of John. He died without any record of prophesying to many peoples, nations and tongues…. EXCEPT…
Understanding the nature of the seventh trumpet:
1. Time is no more… Rev. 10:6
2. Jesus rules and reigns forevermore… Rev. 11:15-18
3. God wrath IS come, judges the dead… Rev. 11:15-18
4. Jesus rewards the righteous… Rev. 11:15-18
5. God destroys them that destroy the Earth… Rev. 11:15-18
6. Paul declares the Rapture happens at the last trumpet…. 1 Cor. 15:51,52
If Jesus now rules and reigns forevermore and God destroys those that destroy the Earth, then you simply cannot have an antichrist ruling and reigning chronologically after this.
Throughout the book of Revelation the angels/beast/voice from heaven are showing John the revelation and walking him through it, until you get to a section of chapters 12-16. In this section no personal guidance is supplied to him through it. In this section we have the mark of the beast, and the seven bowl/vials judgments. The angel does not return to explain and expound on this section until chapter 17. We know that Jesus rules and reigns forevermore at the end of chapter eleven and therefore this section cannot be happening post 7th trumpet, but rather must be a parallel, or a SECOND prophesy. John prophesying AGAIN. The angel told John that he would prophesy AGAIN as a result of eating the little book. Therefore the ONLY explanation is that the 12-16 chapters is exactly that; John prophesying again. This second prophesy originates from eating the book. John never had the opportunity to prophesy again to many tribes, nations and kings after his time of exile on Patmos. He was an old man and died shortly afterward. However, this second prophesy IS and will be heard by all the kings, nations, and tribes, when the mark of the beast is implemented and they start wondering why the Saints won’t play along and take the mark. The second prophesy mirrors the first. The seven bowls expound on it’s sister prophesy, the seven trumpets. They are one in the same.
That being the case, check out right before the seventh bowl. Jesus declares in Rev. 16:15 its in red!
“Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame
This is the same warning He gave the CHURCH of Sardis in Rev. 3:1-4. (Why is the church being mentioned in chapter 16?)
So here we see Paul declaring that the rapture is at the last trumpet. We see Jesus declaring that the rapture is about to happen right before the last bowl, and we have the Angel showing John that the trumpets and the bowls are one in the same. Jesus rewards the righteous at the 7th trumpet, and declares He comes and His reward is WITH Him.
There is at least three Scriptures that directly point to the rapture at the 7th trumpet. The view is not built upon speculation, but the Word of God
A storm is a brewing all over the world. It will be a long time before people can once again make the claim, peace and safety. Prior to Nazi Germany the same type of storm was brewing. Everyone knew it then. It could be felt well before it hit. Despite the some of the media’s obvious misinformation campaign people know it’s coming today. There will always be a few that put on the rose colored glasses and try to plant hopium, but IMO the masses must feel and believe the concept of peace and safety, rather and the few trumpeters making the claim, “peace and safety” as the Scripture states. As a post-trib believer I see that this claim of peace and safety will be only obtained after the scapegoat of the saints killed for not taking the mark is achieved. The antichrist and his followers will finally be able to say that they have obtained this place of peace and safety after ridding the Earth of those who have been a stumbling block to their beliefs. Only now they can live in peace without the “better than thou” people informing them of sin and wrongdoing. After all, without the messenger to bring such bad news of sin… no bad news exists. After all, the antichrist will have all the answers to fix all the problems. Once the problems are addressed and the solutions are in place, the stage is set for the time of “peace and safety.”
Naturally that effects the concept of immanency that is preached in conjunction with the pretrib Rapture doctrine. No one can deny that the world is heating up. All sorts of violence are on the increase. The economists are claiming the world is on the edge of a cliff financially. The numbers around the world claiming “peace and safety” are decreasing rapidly. Once the violence hits home, it becomes undeniable. You can always find one person to make the claim, “peace and safety,” but for it to be a world view takes and antichrist. Don’t ya think?