Separating the Rapture from the Second Coming

A post tribber was having a conversation with a pretribber.  The post states to the pre, “I’m going golfing next week on Tuesday.”  The pre responds, “Is that the first Tuesday or the second Tuesday next week?”  The post states, “What?  What do you mean by that?” The pre responds, “Well the first Tuesday of the week we call the rapture, and the second Tuesday we call the second coming.”  The post responds, “That sounds a little schizophrenic to me.  How do you come up with that?”   The pre replies, “Well the first Tuesday is the day of the Lord and the second is the day of Christ.”  Again the post replies, “Say what?  Christ is the Lord!  There is no difference.”

I’ve been amazed at how the pre-trib camp has attempted to separate the singular event of the rapture/second coming.  The very word “rapture” isn’t in the Bible, yet it was conjured up as an attempt to bring a separation in the event.  They make these big long list or charts to attempt to explain the difference.  Some reasonings are all out lies.  For example:  We are told that at the second coming Jesus doesn’t meet us in the air, but heads strait for the Mount of Olives.  However, Matt. 24:29-31 which is a known as a second coming Scripture, informs us that Jesus comes in the clouds and gathers His own.  So then the argument must then separate the clouds (Matt 24:29-31) from the air (1 Thess. 4:16,17).  That has no more argument than attempting to separate ‘the day of the Lord’ from ‘the day of Christ’.  Both are the same.  We are told that at the second coming Christ’s own are gathered, but at the rapture, we simple meet Him in the air.  However, 2 Thess. 2:1 defines the rapture as being “gathered together with Him…”  In the end no distinction can be made.  Yet this is the very foundation of the pretrib belief.

For further proof see the posts concerning 2 events of “like a thief…”

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12 Comments

    1. “Loving” is the operative word and boldncourageous lacks it. There is NOTHING loving and everything judgmental about this blog.

      Unbelievable that a so-called Christian would spend this much time attacking ONE type of person.

      Reply

  1. But neither will you find the Trinity by name in the Bible, nor the word mission and a number of other terms we use to describe theological concepts clearly taught in Scripture. The word “Rapture” in Scripture is taken from the Latin “rapio” for the two words “caught up” used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

    I suppose you don’t believe in the Trinity either? This type of “reasoning” is ridiculous.

    Reply

    1. Thank you Modres for visiting my site. I know you work hard pushing your speculation, and opinion on your own site. I do believe in the Trinity. I also believe that the Scriptures weren’t originally written in LATIN. Interesting that you point out that the word “rapture” is derived from a second language… Latin. Man sure has a way of manipulation the Word of God and twisting it don’t they? Peter who taught the “second coming” to the church, right afterward informs us that Paul’s teachings of the end times are “twisted” by people that get their assumptions and speculations from Paul’s teachings of the end times. He goes on to state that they do this to “all of Scripture” and calls them “wicked”… see 2 Peter 3:10-17. How true that the words “caught up” is in the Scripture. That event is laid out in Scripture at the Second Coming… See Matt. 24:29-31. “Harpazio” the original GREEK, that denotes the phrase “caught up,” is used in other places as well… like when Philip was translated after baptizing the Ethiopian eunuch. Interesting that it always denotes a physical movement of our physical bodies (Earth suits). When John was told to “come up here”, in Rev. 4:1, he was in the spirit… shedding his physical earth suit. The earth suit/physical body NEVER goes to heaven… EVER. Paul tells us at the rapture/second coming, that those who have died and are with Christ, will again receive “incorruptible” bodies/earth suits once again. Why do they all of a sudden need NEW PHYSICAL BODIES? Because, Jesus is not returning to heaven, but ruling and reigning ON EARTH for 1000 years. The raptured also get a new “earth suit”… an immortal one. They DO NOT go to heaven, but rather remain ON EARTH with CHRIST for 1000 years. Jesus states, “…that where I am, there you may be also.” John 14:3. Jesus is not in heaven, but on Earth. Those in heaven will need new Earth suits, so that they are not disembodied spirits or ghosts on Earth. May be difficult to rule and reign with Christ as a ghost. Be sure and note the context of 1 Cor. 15:51-54, Paul goes to great lengths to define the difference between the physical body and the spiritual body…see verse 1 Cor. 15:44. The spirit man is eternal, and not mortal or corruptible, that is the physical body (earth suit) only.

      Circular reasoning is ridiculous. I have no problem with the fact that the second coming of Christ is now coined as the “rapture.” I do however, have a problem with it’s origins: Darby’s writings called the “Secret Rapture.” So secret it’s not in the Word, totally conjured, through speculation, opinion, and assumption.

      Reply

      1. But you DO believe in a PostTrib Rapture, correct?

        Thank you for judging me, which you have no right to do. In fact, you’re breaking the law of love by doing it, since you assume that I am deceived and deceiving.

        I’ve lost track of how many PostTribbers like yourself have told me I am on my way to hell. Really. You have the audacity to sit in God’s seat by attempting to determine the state of my salvation?

        I’m aware of the Latin and the Greek. I studied the Greek while in graduate school.

        The word “rapturo” is from the Latin, but it’s originally from the Greek verb meaning “caught up.”

        You do plenty of twisting of Scripture yourself. Quite a bit in fact. You can quote all the Scripture you want, but the truth is that your own deception is what is only display in your blog and anyone who has a modicum of intelligence and can rightly divide the Word understands that.

        Since the word “trinity” does not appear in Scripture, I don’t understand why you would accept that as a valid doctrine, since you argued that the word “rapture” does not appear.

        Also, your calculations for the timing of Daniel’s 70 weeks is extremely off. A “week” there is either a period of seven years or it isn’t. It can’t be both. If the sacrifices and offerings were stopped in the “Middle” of the “week” as you believe, then the AD 70 event that you ascribe to as causing that cessation is way off base, mathematically.

        I’m at a loss to explain how intelligent people (seemingly) can accept that “weeks” 1 – 69 equal seven year periods, but then the final “week” is not even close to being limited to seven years.

        But then again, this same type of “mental” gymnastics are done when attempting to prove that people can lose their salvation.

        As far as this whole issue of PreTrib Rapture goes, I cannot believe you have spent all this time creating one article after another dedicated to that subject.

        What a tragic waste of time.

      2. Thanks again modres for visiting my site.

        According to the Word of God, I have every right to judge those who call themselves Christians. It’s those outside that Paul state, “God will judge.” Cor. 5

        I do not assume that you are deceived and deceiving. I know without a shadow of a doubt that is the case.

        Have I told you that you are going to Hell? I don’t believe so. I do believe you are dragging a whole lot of folks in that direction though. The prettrib doctrine creates “stony” soil. Those who are stony “immediately stumble” when tribulation and persecution come…Mark 4:18. Jesus states that it is better for a millstone to be tied around someone’s neck and that they were cast into the sea, if they are the cause of the “least of these” to stumble. I’d say you are standing on very shaky ground.

        Now for your accusation of how I twist the Word. Please explain, I’d love to hear your thoughts, rather than you accusations. Please do explain yourself. As it stands you only have an assumption that I may not believe in the Trinity, or that I comment on your post to increase readership of my own. Both are false assumptions.

        Concerning Daniel’s 70th week. Daniel was NOT the first to use the term “week.” The book of Jude refers to the book of Enoch. Enoch was the 7th from Adam and used the term “week” in his writings. It NEVER meant 7 years in his writings… it was 1000 year periods of time, but, no matter, you really aren’t making your point clear.

        Here is the CLEAR point: 66 AD to 73 AD is a Seven year period. In the middle of that week, 70 AD the sacrifices and offerings WERE ended. It started with Titus in 66 AD and ended at Masada in 73 AD.

      3. You are so far off it’s pitiful.

        Thank you for confirming how little you know and for proving how easily unlearned people like yourself can mishandle God’s Word.

        So it was Titus who confirmed the covenant with the many. Ok.

        So when Jesus refers to the abomination that desolates referring to Daniel and ultimately Antiochus Epiphanes of Dan 8 & 11 as a type of Antichrist) in Matthew 24, I don’t recall Titus desolating the Temple as Antiochus had done in 168 BC and as Paul clearly says WILL happen during Antichrist (which you say was Titus, if we follow your “reasoning.”

        I know Caligula tried to waltz into the Temple like Antiochus had, but failed. Yet there is no record Titus even tried to do what Antiochus did. In fact historians note that the Jewish priest probably destroyed the Temple to keep it from being desecrated.

        Oh wait, I’m going outside the Bible showing how history confirms it.

        Your reasoning is absolutely tragic.

      4. My point regarding the Trinity is that while you use the argument that word rapture does not appear in the Bible, therefore it can’t be a valid doctrine, the word trinity does appear either yet you DO believe in the trinity.

        Do you see the problem? Probably not.

        Don’t worry about me being on shaky ground. Look to your own life. In fact – hypocrite – stop worrying about the spec in my eye and deal with the plank in yours.

        I do not have time to go back and forth with you. It serves no purpose except to puff up and you appear to be puffed up already.

        Even if I am 100% correct I can convince no one and neither can you.

        Trust that God is bigger than both of us and will deal with each of us as He sees fit.

  2. Oh, and one more thing. You have CONVINCED yourself you are correct at ALL points. You don’t KNOW that you are correct. You have simply CONVINCED yourself that you ARE correct and there is a HUGE difference.

    Paul says a little knowledge PUFFS up and this is obviously the case with you. Any idea how many times I have presented my articles with words and phrases like “I could be wrong” or “it’s possible,” or “there are a number of possibilities,” etc.? Read something by Charles Ryrie and then compare it to Gary North or Dave MacPherson. While the former is an absolute gentleman, the latter two are hucksters who have created a following of “groupies” who are as sarcastic and sacrilegious as those two.

    I have run into so many PostTribbers like yourself who remind me of dyed-in-the-wool ATHEISTS. You can tell them NOTHING. They are so convinced their position is CORRECT that they can’t even take the time to CONSIDER yours. There is NO God they laugh! Wake up, they exclaim! There’s NOTHING beyond the grave, they intone. They are as CONVINCED as you are about your set of beliefs that they are 100% correct. They cannot even ENTERTAIN a dissenting opinion, nor can you.

    You are like that. In spite of the fact that you boast on your “Blog Purpose” page that you want discussion, etc., you don’t. You want people to accept your articles without even thinking about it.

    EVERY one of your reasons for disagreeing with the PReTrib Rapture view have been more than adequately dealt with by TRUE scholars. Yet, if you HAVE read them, they probably did nothing for you, except bring to the surface your own measure of proud disdain for them that they would attempt to continue the “deception.”

    I am going to start praying that the Lord will show you in some very measurable way not that you may or may not be wrong about being a PostTribber, but that you are filled with PRIDE.

    There is absolutely NO sense of reaching out to people with whom you disagree on this blog. You have only very rough edges that need to be sanded off (as we all do), but you don’t see that.

    Instead of spending so much time trashing PreTribbers, why not take some time to reach out to people who need salvation? Spend some time in a soup kitchen. Volunteer at Salvation Army or some other place that meets people’s physical needs. There you can try to evangelize those who are truly lost.

    Or, maybe you’d simply prefer to hang out here behind your keyboard and continue to castigate anyone who doesn’t worship the very ground you build your man-made arguments on regarding your PostTribber position?

    There is NO discussion here on this blog at all. It’s all your parroted opinion.

    You are NOT Jesus Christ (or even Paul or Peter)! You do NOT have all the answers nor all the understanding where God’s Word is concerned. No one does. Yet, you act as though you do.

    Good luck with that. You have “head knowledge” and that’s it. When I see that, coupled with 1 Corinthians 13, then I’ll know there is actually something real inside you. You know, like the Holy Spirit.

    Reply

    1. So Madres, the point of this post is that there is no separation between the rapture and the second coming, yet you’ve sidestepped proving the very foundation of your view and showing a separation in the Word. I totally understand your need to ignore the foundational issue. It comes from having absolutely no foundation in your doctrine. If you actually had one, you could present it, but you don’t. So you must blow smoke and bait people by accusations. I do understand where you are coming from… a lack of foundation. All you have is conjecture, speculation, opinion and assumption. Please prove me incorrect. You keep saying I’m wrong, and only correct in my own mind, yet you offer no alternative, only judgmental accusation. That is because truth doesn’t back you. Paul tells us to avoid speculations because they produce division in the body of Christ… 2 Tim 2:23. I’m simply pointing out that you have embraced speculation that has done just that. There isn’t a single Scripture that backs your view. I am not beyond changing my ways, just show me where I’ve missed it. You on the other hand… this site is dedicated to showing you where you’ve missed it. Yet you can’t bring yourself to actually comment on the issues. I understand why, it is found in 2 Thess. 2:12.

      Reply

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