The Time of Peace and Safety is a ways off…

A storm is a brewing all over the world. It will be a long time before people can once again make the claim, peace and safety. Prior to Nazi Germany the same type of storm was brewing. Everyone knew it then. It could be felt well before it hit.  Despite the some of the media’s obvious misinformation campaign people know it’s coming today. There will always be a few that put on the rose colored glasses and try to plant hopium, but IMO the masses must feel and believe the concept of peace and safety, rather and the few trumpeters making the claim, “peace and safety” as the Scripture states. As a post-trib believer I see that this claim of peace and safety will be only obtained after the scapegoat of the saints killed for not taking the mark is achieved. The antichrist and his followers will finally be able to say that they have obtained this place of peace and safety after ridding the Earth of those who have been a stumbling block to their beliefs. Only now they can live in peace without the “better than thou” people informing them of sin and wrongdoing. After all, without the messenger to bring such bad news of sin… no bad news exists. After all, the antichrist will have all the answers to fix all the problems. Once the problems are addressed and the solutions are in place, the stage is set for the time of “peace and safety.”

Naturally that effects the concept of immanency that is preached in conjunction with the pretrib Rapture doctrine. No one can deny that the world is heating up. All sorts of violence are on the increase. The economists are claiming the world is on the edge of a cliff financially. The numbers around the world claiming “peace and safety” are decreasing rapidly. Once the violence hits home, it becomes undeniable. You can always find one person to make the claim, “peace and safety,” but for it to be a world view takes and antichrist. Don’t ya think?


Rev. 21:8 tells us that all cowards will be cast into Hell, are pretribbers on the list?

I’ve responded to over 300 pre-trib blogs over the last year.  I’ve recorded just about every response that I’ve not found a single teacher and promoter of the pre-trib doctrine willing or capable of answering my questions.  90 percent do not even post my response.  The view cannot stand any scrutiny, yet they teach it as if it were straight from God’s lips.  The Word tells us to be ready in season and out concerning the hope that is in them, yet they NEVER do.  I’m sure it’s not because they don’t want to, they simply can’t.  Why, because the Word of God Itself debunks and debates their view.  Is it cowardice why they are unwilling to look at the facts before them or simply that they fail to love the truth and God has sent a strong delusion over them…2 Thess. 2;12?  If their view is correct, why the lack of confidence to make a stand for it?

I’ve be kicked off of many forums and websites just for asking questions.  I don’t mind being called names and the persecution that comes with making a stand for what I believe.  However, the deliberate deceit to the masses torques me.  The brainwashing has already been accomplished, and therefore it appears, it just a matter of maintaining it.  Keep any apposing views from being able to question our hard work of indoctrination.  Apparently the view is a fragile house of cards, and they know it.

The two places where Paul and Jesus both warn us to be careful that no man deceive you are the most pronounced places in the Word of obvious deception.  Paul informs us that we can’t be raptured (2 Thess. 2:1) until the “falling away” takes place.  “Falling away” comes from the Greek word ‘apostasia’ which is where we get the English words ‘apostasy’ and ‘apostate’ which means ‘departing away from the faith’.  Yet the pre-trib doctrine makes the meaning of ‘apostasia’ to mean simply “depart” or in essence ‘rapture.’  Which if were true would cause the Paul to have circular reasoning here, we cannot be raptured…2 Thess. 2:1, until we are raptured… vs. 3.  The interpretation simply doesn’t fly.

Jesus also warns us to not let man deceive us right after the disciples ask about the events surrounding the fall of the temple in Jerusalem when not one stone is left upon another…. Mark 13:1-5. (see also Luke 21:5-8, and Matt. 24:1-4)  The event of the destruction of the temple that happened in 70 AD during the Roman-Jewish War (66-73 AD) ended the daily sacrifices.  Thus fulfilling Daniel’s 70th week perfectly.  Yet the doctrine deceptive informs us that the event is sometime in the future as well as the same event of the “abomination of desolation” and the time of “Jacob’s trouble” that causes Israel to be scattered to the ends of the earth… Jer. 30,31.  Now that Israel is gathered since 1948, she will never be scattered again… Ezek. 27:21-25.

Yet, the doctrine hinges a duration of 7 years for the great tribulation on this ONE verse (Daniel 9:27) that is already fulfilled, and creates a doctrinal timeline around it.  Telling us that the temple will be rebuilt and destroyed in the time of the great tribulation. Also giving us a mid-week scenario in the tribulation. NO other Scripture supports and back up this doctrine. Yet a great multitude allows themselves to be deceived into this teaching that both Jesus and Paul specifically warn about.

Is the Post-tribulation Rapture a Dangerous View?

Search the Web on this topic and you find very little on the post-trib side.  On post told me that the Post-tribulation Rapture is very dangerous because it messes with the pre-tribulational doctrinal issues.  Well naturally, but that hardly makes it dangerous.  Another direction people take to tell us that it is dangerous is has a more slanderous nature.  It is from an accusation that those who believe the view won’t see the need to live godly lives, because they can put that off until later.  Unfortunately, that argument applies to just about anyone and it is contrary to Peter’s admonition.

2 Peter 3:10,12

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Peter tells us that because the heavens and earth is going to be dissolved, for that reason we need to behave ourselves.  How a person chooses to live, is the heavenly test of eternity.   I don’t really see the logical nature of Peters reasoning here, but it dismantles and addresses the pre-tribbers argument over the issue.  In the end the accusation for the Post-trib view being dangerous is yet to be determined.

Taking a post-trib stance, on the other hand, is very beneficial.  It prepare and give a mindset to receive tribulation and persecution.  Both which are assigned and appointed to the believer… John 16:33, 2 Tim 3:12.  Paul tells us that he glories in his tribulations because the perfect him… Rom 5:3.  Jesus declares that this mindset is necessary to have the fertile soil of salvation in His parable of the sower… Mark 4.  For this reason the post-trib stance sees a fundamental tie to salvation.  The stony soil is not prepared for tribulation and persecution, and when it comes, those who have the stony soil, “immediately stumble” and fall away.  Taking the post-trib stance also prepares the believer to keep the oil in their lamp to go the distance.  This is the warning that Jesus gave concerning the 10 virgins.  Half were foolish and didn’t have enough oil to make it to the end.

In contrast, the Pre-trib view, has an extremely dangerous side effect.  That is the stony soil issue… Mark 4:18.  It makes the issue foundationally connected to salvation.  Because those who adhere to the view seem to be unable to look at the other side of the coin in case they are incorrect, they fail to notice that the fundamental attraction to the view is the part about skipping out on all the bad stuff, i.e. tribulation and persecution.  For this reason the stony soil has a strong attraction to it.  Historically this is what happens.  If the pre-trib doctrine is taught prior to persecution there is severe danger.  Such as in China in the 1930’s, when tribulation and persecution came, loads of believers became apostate.  Denying Christ, will cause Him to deny you before His Father in heaven.  Rev. 3:5 speaks of blotting out names that were once written in the book of life.

So concerning spiritual warfare, if the Devil were to take on a deceptive view, which one would be more favorable to his cause?  There is only one correct view.  Choose wisely.

Is Salvation a Fundamental Issue attached to your view of Eschatology?

The matter of salvation is at the foundation of the rub that lies between the different views. The statement that “It does not matter…” defines you as a pre-tribber. The Pre-tribbers tell us it doesn’t matter what your view is in light of eschatology (the study of the end times). They tell us that it is a totally separate issue from salvation. If the pre-trib view is correct, then their statement is also has an element of truth.

However, if the Post-trib (and others) position is correct and Jesus comes at the end rather than the beginning, your statement is totally false. Their view is totally related to salvation. Often the pre-tribber is unaware of this fact, because of the pre-trib lenses that they wear.

You see, Jesus tells us the “parable of the sower.” A parable about salvation. In it there is different soils represented. The soils represent man’s heart. The fertile soil is the favorable soil, and in fact the only soil that makes it to heaven. It lacks the traits of the other soils that keep them from heaven. One soil in particular stands out. It is the stony soil, when persecution and tribulation come they immediately stumble and fall away… Mark 4:18. Obviously, this would be catastrophic for a pre-tribber to believe they wouldn’t have to endure the tribulation, just to be confronted with a new paradigm.

The parable of the 10 virgins also tells the story… Only 5 of the 10 have the oil to endure till the end. The other five are told, “depart from me I never knew you.”

When the Red Curtain fell in China and tribulation and persecution hit hard there, the pastors and leaders who once taught the pre-trib doctrine to their flock, saw many quickly turn from their faith as Jesus promised in Mark 4:18. Afterward, the had deep regrets that they hadn’t taught them to prepare for the promised tribulation and persecution that is assigned to all Christians…John 16:33, 2 Tim 3:12.

For a post-tribber to present their view to a pre-tribber, it is evangelistic in nature for them.

Peter tells of the importance of your getting it right concerning your view of eschatology.  In 2 Peter 3:10-16 he informs us that those who don’t get it right, “twist the Scriptures as they always do.”  NKJV   If that is the case it makes eschatology into a fundamental view.  Foundational concerning ALL of the Word.  Interesting to note in this passage that Peter who teaches “second coming” to the church tells us that it is Paul’s teachings that get twisted.  We know that the Pre-trib view IS the view that is derived from Paul’s teachings.  If Peter is not speaking of the Pre-trib view, then who?   Something to consider….

Why the Pre-trib Doctrine is Total Speculation, and Conjecture Part 2

The number one argument that draws people to the Pre-tribulation rapture doctrine that Christians will be rapture out before the Great tribulation is the fact that Christians are not assigned or appointed to God’s wrath.  The problem is that the nature of God’s wrath is assumed and defined contrary to God’s Word.  Lets look at the verse:

1 Thess. 5:9,10 (KJV) For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

(NASV)9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

So we understand that …in the future….. we are not appointed, assigned, or destined to God’s wrath.  The question that needs to be asked is “what does that apply to?”  Instead many just ASSUME that it refers to a ‘temporal’ wrath on Earth.  However does it?  The answer is a resounding “NO!”  The wrath that ‘is to come’ is Hell itself.

There are two words used in the Greek language that often translates into English as “wrath.”  The one used in this passage is “thymos” it is present in only two passages in Revelation… Rev. 6:16,17, and Rev. 11:18

In Rev. 6, MAN defines the events happening to Earth as God’s wrath, but in Rev. 11:18 the 24 elders define God’s wrath as Hell, or judging the dead.

The other word in the Greek used for God’s wrath starts after Rev. 11 and is used in the bowl/vial judgements.  In Rev. 14:9-11 the angels define EXACTLY what God’s wrath is:

[9] And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
[10] The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
[11] And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Here the picture of God’s wrath is once again… ETERNAL in nature… fire and brimstone with smoke that ascends up eternally.

Okay, this is the basic argument and anyone can twist the Scriptures to suggest what they want it to suggest, so let’s look at the application.

First of all, the pretrib doctrine separates the church from the tribulation saints in the book of Revelation.  The argument is that the church/bride cannot experience God’s wrath therefore she must be raptured out of that mess.  Are you seeing a problem yet?  What about the “tribulation saints?”  Are they appointed to God’s wrath?  Does God’s Word not apply to them? In my other posts, I’ve addressed this issue in more detail.  The fact of the matter is that God’s promises apply to all of God’s people.  In order for God’s wrath to temporal, God’s Word would be a lie to the “tribulation saints.”  God’s Word does not lie, therefore God’s wrath is not temporal, but Hell itself.

So the very foundation of the pretrib doctrine has now been destroyed.  Without the speculation that states that God’s wrath is not Hell, but Earthly, any basis for placing the rapture at the beginning of the tribulation has been dismantled.  Understanding that God’s wrath is indeed Hell, leaves no Biblical argument for skipping out of the great tribulation.  Without the wrath of God being temporal, the pre-trib rapture doctrine ceases to exist.

The Bible tells the Timing of the Rapture

Although the Bible tells us that no man knows the day or the hour… Matt. 24:36 and that Jesus will come as a thief in the night…Matt. 24:42,43, 2 Thess. 5:2, 2 Peter 3:10, Rev. 16:15.  The Scripture also gives a very big clue and tells us when.  In 1 Cor. 15:51,52 Paul tells us that it is “at the last trumpet”
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed

Often this fact doesn’t fit several doctrines so those who believe those doctrines immediately dismiss this fact.  However, Rev. 10:7 and 1 Cor. 15:52 are the only two verses in Scripture that discuss the revealed mystery at the last trumpet. Take a look at Rev. 10:5-7

[5] And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven

[6] And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
[7] But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Now lets take the actual event of the last trumpet:   Rev. 11

[15] And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
[16] And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
[17] Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
[18] And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
[19] And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail

Take a look at some of the list of happens at the last trumpet..

1)  Time is no more…. Rev. 10:6

2)  The kingdoms of the world are become the kingdoms of Christ… Rev. 11:15

3)  Christ rules forevermore… Rev. 11:15

4)  Not only does Christ have the power….  He uses it… He HAS reigned at this moment in time/7th trumpet!   Rev. 11:17

5)  God pours out His wrath on the dead… Rev.11:18

6)  He rewards His people (see list)… Rev. 11:18

7)  People can no longer destroy the earth… Rev. 11:18

8)  The rapture…. at the last trumpet…. 1 Cor 15:52

9)  The mystery of God is finished… Rev. 10:6

Notice that Christ rewards His people… Point number 6….  At this point the reward is given out

Rev. 22:12

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be

Rev. 22:12 implies that the reward is handed out at the time of His return.

Could the fact that God wrath is poured out on the dead mean anything different than putting them into an eternal Hell?

Digging still deeper into the Word.  Rev 10 tells us that John eats the scroll or little book that gives him a bitter stomach.  Is this not the climax of the chapter?  This brings about the result of God giving him another word to release to the people…  Rev. 10:11

[11] And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings

John wrote the Book of Revelation in his 90s if he were relatively the same age as Jesus.  Some say it was written in 92 Ad others 95 during his exile to the island of Patmos when he recorded it.  It is believed that he was released and lived the remainder of his days in Ephesus where he completed the finished copies of Revelation and John.

So the question is when did he prophesy AGAIN.  John isn’t known historically as a prophet.  He is known as John the revelator because of the book of Revelations.

The obvious conclusion is that the seventh trumpet is the END of the first prophesy.  The angel had declared that “time is no longer” at the last trumpet just prior to giving John the little book,  You simply cannot have the big long list of accomplished events such as Christ ruling and reigning forevermore and then events in the next prophesy such as the antichrist reigning a couple of chapters later and think that the events are sequential.  The fact is that the first prophesy is finished at the 7th trumpet, and John is about to prophesy again.

In Rev. 12 the second prophesy begins and it is sequential through chapter 16.   Note the absence of any angel leading John through this passage.  The absence would would give opportunity for the presentation of the little book’s second prophesy.  Chapter 17 and 18 are explanatory chapters of that prophesy where the angel returns to explain them.

There must be two prophesies, because that would be the only way for the angel to swear correctly, and for Christ to rule and reign forevermore.  The the second prophesy is complementary of the first.  Therefore the trumpets and the vials/bowls are one in the same.   Note the announcement of the Rapture right before the 7the vial/bowl….

Rev. 16:15  Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame

Here again we have doctrines that dismiss this verse or tell us it is misplaced, but is it?  If the trumpets and the bowls are one in the same, this placement of this verse absolutely complements the fact that Jesus comes at the last (7th) trumpet.

Pretrib doctrine is Foundationaly built on Speculation of obscure passages part 1

I find it fascinating that a pre-trib doctrine believer actually believes that some prophesies are fulfilled. After all the most obvious fulfillment is the one where the daily sacrifices have ended, and pretribbers see it as futuristic. The Jews know when these sacrifices ended, the rest of the world knows that the Jews have never continued to resume the daily sacrifices, and yet pre-tribbers place this prophesy in the future. Interesting…

Titus who made a covenant with the Roman Empire started his quest in 66 AD to squelch the Jewish rebellion. After 3.5 years his quest ended by the decimation of the temple in Jerusalem. Thus ending the daily sacrifices and leaving Jerusalem desolate. This happened in chronological order of Daniel’s prophesy of the 70 weeks. Right after the Messiah was cut off by not for Himself, thus fulfilling Daniel’s 70th week to a T… YET…the pretribber tells us that there is a mysterious 2000 yr +/- gap between the 69th and 70 week. Just so that the Great Tribulation can be a 7 yr period, and so they can falsely separate the Jewish program from the church. What do they do with the daily sacrifices being obviously cut off? They tell us that the Temple is going to be rebuilt and the daily sacrifices again restored…. YET… the whole of Scripture NEVER gives any indication of that. In fact this thinking is brought about by a single verse…. Daniel’s 70th week which Titus clearly fulfilled in a timely manor.

This single verse that is falsely interpreted by the pretrib doctrine is the Foundation of the pretrib doctrine. Without it you have no 7 year tribulation period, no temple rebuilt, no mid-tribulation 3.5 year timeline, no end of the daily sacrifices, and the like. ONE SINGLE VERSE, and NO SUPPORTING VERSES to support it. The entire doctrine is built on such speculation of obscure passages that don’t support the doctrine. Sad part is that pretribbers want it to work so badly for them that they forsake the truth just to make it work for them. It is extremely sad the deception that they have brought upon themselves because they fail to love the truth… 2 Thess. 2:11,12